monza Posted January 30, 2008 Share #41 Posted January 30, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Guy, are there any other improvements with the latest firmware update besides AWB? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 30, 2008 Posted January 30, 2008 Hi monza, Take a look here M8 Upgrade - It's Official!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 30, 2008 Share #42 Posted January 30, 2008 i'd probably trade the change in shutter speed for a quieter shutter, but how much more quieter would it be? and of course cost will be an issue too. here's a question... how much would leica have to charge in order for your to purchase this kit? alternatively, does the new features make you want to purchase the kit? as for firmware, Guy, thanks for the sample photos. iwhen i use my M8 for party shots or just goofing around pics, i'd rather use JPEG just because i don't want to spend time in post for these type of pics. now with an adjusted AWB, it makes things alot better for me. I think a lot of folks will be much happier. One must realize too no camera has any really color brains in it so it will always be left to chance but this is a lot closer to reality here , i know for a fact the busted there ass on just this alone. They put a lot of time in this reason it took so long to get it out. Hopefully it will serve folks a lot better and i think that is all any of us want too. I'm a user just like you guys so i want it better even though i always shoot raw. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordfanjpn Posted January 30, 2008 Share #43 Posted January 30, 2008 I'm a registered M8 owner, but no email for me! What's up with that? Same here. Maybe later in the day? Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 30, 2008 Share #44 Posted January 30, 2008 Guy, are there any other improvements with the latest firmware update besides AWB? No fast scrolling or Zebra stripes that i detected. My one problem is i was a little busy to actually seriously test it , but i did shoot a lot with it. I did ask Leica to explain the firmware when they released it so we know exactly what was done and the last time I asked they did that and hopefully we can get a repeat on that. Just saves us from guessing Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fefe Posted January 30, 2008 Share #45 Posted January 30, 2008 Out of ~ 5000 shots in 6 months I have 36 at 8000 and 46 at 6000 with 12 keepers at 8000 and 13 keepers at 6000 (6 happened to be at 6000 because I forgot the iso setting on 640...). After looking at the histos, only 2 of the shots taken at 8000 couldn't have been reasonably taken at 4000. So a 4000 shutter would probably have made me miss these 2 shots (well not really as I would probably have stopped down and would have had slightly more DOF and less dramatic OOF areas). Now there are a few times where I felt bad about the noise of the shutter, but I don't think in the end it prevented me from taking any picture. Still I felt uncomfortable more than once because of that SHTak! So would I trade 2 pictures at f2.8 instead of f2 for a close to silent shutter ? Probably, but I will for sure let other people test the upgrade path for me before. In the end I really love the idea that they will keep upgrading the platform, and also like the idea they will offer to come pick it at your door. I just hope that they will come to pick it just before it is going to be upgraded and not 6 months before (in that case I clearly would not upgrade). About the AWB, I wait to see, but I got use to rebalance many of my pictures anyway and shoot 100% RAW. It's nice to have it be better but my number 1 wish for an easy to upgrade feature would be an analog wheel for ISO control (besides the obvious sensor one which will probably not come soon). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted January 30, 2008 Share #46 Posted January 30, 2008 Well I'm a happy camper anyway. OK - better to have got it right first time round, but SO much better than having my tools rendered obsolete by the introduction of a "new" model. Reminds me of the old days of film. My camera got an upgrade each time the film companies came up with better product, and I could gain from competition each step of the way. Kudos to Leica. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 30, 2008 Share #47 Posted January 30, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) What exactly is a sapphire glass cover? Is it just a cover on the existing screen? a new screen? What does "sapphire" mean/imply? I have it on my Panerai Watch and not sure of the qualities of the glass but i can tell you to scratch it would be very very hard to do. I had this watch 5 years and not a scratch and i am not the most gentle person when working with my hands. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photolandscape Posted January 30, 2008 Share #48 Posted January 30, 2008 Like so many things Leica these days, it's hard not to come away with a "love it, hate it" response to the upgrade kit. If it involved an improved sensor with substantially less noise at higher ISO settings, I'd be happy. But for me AWB was a big deal, and if the new firmware addresses it as well as it appears it may, I'll take Firmware for free and forget about the $1800 or so upgrade. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat_mcdermott Posted January 30, 2008 Share #49 Posted January 30, 2008 Me too, but I always seem to get the official email after the public announcement and I already know everything about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddp Posted January 30, 2008 Share #50 Posted January 30, 2008 So.....what will Leica be selling right out of the box in September? An M8.2? and if that - what price? Or will they continue to sell the M8 "as is" and offer customers a special offer on whatever the current upgrade path may be? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monza Posted January 30, 2008 Share #51 Posted January 30, 2008 I like the upgrade idea in general, but it raises additional questions. I assume, for one, that additional manpower will be added so the upgrade turn-around is reasonable. How often will the upgrades be offered? Will new M8 off the shelf be the 'old original' M8 or the 'upgraded M8'? When the second round of upgrades is offered, will I have to buy the first round in order to get the second round? Regarding sapphire, Rolex offers sapphire glass on their watches. It's very hard to scratch, but it will break...I managed to accomplish that feat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephengilbert Posted January 30, 2008 Share #52 Posted January 30, 2008 According to Wikipedia, Sapphire crystal is a very hard transparent material commonly used for "scratch-proof" watch glasses. Made by crystallizing aluminum oxide at very high temperatures, it is chemically the same as natural sapphire and ruby, but without the small amounts of other elements such as iron, titanium or chromium that give the gemstones their colors. Sapphire (whether natural or synthetic) is one of the hardest substances, measuring 9 on the Mohs scale, a system for rating the relative scratch hardness of materials. (Diamond measures 10, the highest rating, and the hardest steels are 8). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelderfield Posted January 30, 2008 Share #53 Posted January 30, 2008 Guy - please please ask Leica about the Frame Lines when you talk to them at PMA. For me the shutter is fine, the glass is fine, we should have firmware updates anyway. I would, WILL, pay for more normal standard frame lines. You can tell them that! Jonathan Elderfield Photography Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 30, 2008 Share #54 Posted January 30, 2008 <quote> Given history, I would not be surprised that if the majority of owners do in fact choose the upgrade, that M8's with 1/8000 shutters may someday be prized for their rarity ... as a collector, I also made this thought... ... and 10 years from now, after the 5th or 6th upgrade I imagine ebays offers like "ORIGINAL !!! Old M8 never upgraded, firmware first version ! Your noisy white-and-magenta dream !!!" Apart jokes, the announcement makes me feel contrasty impressions : - Mr. Lee declaration of M8 as an upgradable platform, posing it in a different breed from the short lifecycle digital, is encomiable. - But HOW deep shall be Leica be able to follow this statement? LCD glass... tune (exchange ?) the shutter... firmware updated (and that's usual): what will happen when, sometime, something new about sensor tech shall be available ? What if something new will be maybe developed around the VF/RF complex? - The price (not officially stated, but rumors are imho credible) is obviously not cheap... if for the future they shall be able to propose more significant upgrades, it will be surely MORE: are we going to be invited to spend, say a mean of 7-800 Euros a year for "upgrades" ? Good, we would have a "permanently guaranteed" camera... but the idea of planning regualr trips to Solms is not so nice... even if it makes more appealing a 2nd body... - Ben Kelly thinks (reasonable) to "skip this upgrade - wait for the next" : WILL THIS BE POSSIBLE ? Maybe they are going to charge more if you skip...It's a critical issue... Leica would do better to explain in detail what means this "upgrade strategy" ... in mainframe and midsize computers similar strategies, years ago, proved often to be NOT a real advantage for end users: they are complex and delicate in technical, logistic and marketing/pricing issues, expecially, I think, for consumer products like digicameras. - About the envisioned price: my strictly personal first thought :"Like my M8 a lot as it is... 1200 Euros ? The price for a good DSLR with strong telezoom... and more than a V-Lux or D-Lux to have a second digicamera that addresses easily some collateral issue like Tele+Macro or strong portability..." - TIMING : announced now, orders in March, work on in August (excellent month for depriving myself of my M8... ) ... what will happen about M8 SALES in this timeframe ? If, say, in May or June (upgrade orders collected) or so they will declare that from that moment M8s will be shipped directly with the "upgrade"... or the price increases (problem with new customers... "I want the old") or remains the same and WE aren't happy: I repeat: any upgrade policy is a really difficult plan to implement (I made the example of computers, above, for it was one of my jobs 15 years ago or so... but we had a "controlled" customer set, not consumers around the world...). -So, I think the announcement is IN ITSELF more important than the content of the upgrade : we will see if this move will be a really well-executed product strategy or... something else (which I don't hope for them). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex7075 Posted January 30, 2008 Share #55 Posted January 30, 2008 Guy, it would be interesting to know if Leica plans to upgrade the sensor in the future, and if that will be FF or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted January 30, 2008 Share #56 Posted January 30, 2008 Same here--but I think everyone who has published the text of the email is in the UK. Maybe it's a trial run to see if the email software works before sending us all to fetch certificates and firmware updates. --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted January 30, 2008 Share #57 Posted January 30, 2008 I think the saphhire LCD is cool, if for no other reason than it'll put an end to the endless debates over which stick-on cover is best The new shutter, well....., something sounds a little fishy. It can't be a cloth horizontal shutter so it's going to sound like a metal-bladed shutter...like the R-D1 perhaps...still not like a "traditional M". And, as we all know, the worst noise comes from the charging motor, which unless the upgrade includes a thumb-activated winding lever...like the R-D1...there's still going to be a motor sound. The shutter in the M8 is straight (well, not straight but very slightly modified) from the R8-R9 which if you're familiar with those, are very quiet if you don't use a motor and you do pre-release the mirror. Why the downslide to 1/4000 just doesn't make sense. Unless the shutters have been blowing enough that Leica felt it was better to sell people a different one for $1800 rather than end up replacing the original ones one by one for free As to the ultimate upgradeability to a new sensor, I remain skeptical. There's just so much more that'd need to be changed out along with the sensor I can't see how it would be cost-effective. Any change to the sensor dimensions would also require new framelines, and perhaps a different magnification as well. At some point I think it will be more reasonable to buy a new camera, especially as time goes by and the older ones begin to deteriorate. Rather like putting a new motor in an old car...suits some folks but not most. I do like the historical significance of this move however. Mr. Lee clearly has insight into the past, when Leica used to offer upgrades from one model to the next. And I do consider the M8 so well-built that it'd be a shame to see 90% of the camera go to waste simply because one or another component became technologically obsolete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machefsky Posted January 30, 2008 Share #58 Posted January 30, 2008 <quote>Given history, I would not be surprised that if the majority of owners do in fact choose the upgrade, that M8's with 1/8000 shutters may someday be prized for their rarity ... as a collector, I also made this thought... ... and 10 years from now, after the 5th or 6th upgrade I imagine ebays offers like "ORIGINAL !!! Old M8 never upgraded, firmware first version ! Your noisy white-and-magenta dream !!!" Apart jokes, the announcement makes me feel contrasty impressions : - Mr. Lee declaration of M8 as an upgradable platform, posing it in a different breed from the short lifecycle digital, is encomiable. - But HOW deep shall be Leica be able to follow this statement? LCD glass... tune (exchange ?) the shutter... firmware updated (and that's usual): what will happen when, sometime, something new about sensor tech shall be available ? What if something new will be maybe developed around the VF/RF complex? - The price (not officially stated, but rumors are imho credible) is obviously not cheap... if for the future they shall be able to propose more significant upgrades, it will be surely MORE: are we going to be invited to spend, say a mean of 7-800 Euros a year for "upgrades" ? Good, we would have a "permanently guaranteed" camera... but the idea of planning regualr trips to Solms is not so nice... even if it makes more appealing a 2nd body... - Ben Kelly thinks (reasonable) to "skip this upgrade - wait for the next" : WILL THIS BE POSSIBLE ? Maybe they are going to charge more if you skip...It's a critical issue... Leica would do better to explain in detail what means this "upgrade strategy" ... in mainframe an midsize computers similar strategies, years ago, proved often to be NOT a real advantage for end users: they are complex and delicate in technical, logistic and marketing/pricing issues, expecially, I think, for consumer products like digicameras. - About the envisioned price: my strictly personal first thought :"Like my M8 a lot as it is... 1200 Euros ? The price for a good DSLR with strong telezoom... and more than a V-Lux or D-Lux to have a second digicamera that addresses easily some collateral issue like Tele+Macro or strong portability..." - TIMING : announced now, orders in March, work on in August (excellent month for depriving myself of my M8... ) ... what will happen about M8 SALES in this timeframe ? If, say, in May or June (upgrade orders collected) or so the will declare that from that moment M8s will be shipped we the new functions... or the price increases (problem with new customers... "I want the old") or remains the same and WE aren't happy: I repeat: any upgrade policy is a really difficult plan to implement (I made the example of computers, above, for it was one of my jobs 15 years ago or so... but we had a "controlled" customer set, not consumers around the world...). - I would be very surprised if even leica knew the answers to all of these questions. They are probably flying by the seat of their pants on this one. Regards, Ira Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 30, 2008 Share #59 Posted January 30, 2008 Just to respond to some upgrade issues, in theory, anyway: I can't seen how getting this first upgrade pack would be a prerequisite to the second, unless Leica is actually changing electronics in a way they're not describing. But if that's true, then skipping an upgrade--worst case--would mean paying for both As long as the upgrade pack didn't affect IQ (as this one evidently doesn't), then there's no reason the upgrade pack can't be looked at as purely optional and the base M8 remain the basic product on the store shelves. At some point I would expect Leica to roll up significant IQ or handling upgrades (eg new sensor or no more IR filters!) into a new model (or point release?), at which point, the M8 upgrade path would be a loyalty move, but if they price it right, it will still keep people buying Leica (and Leica lenses ). From a warranty perspective, this is very interesting for the pro. If their service / return time improves, then getting the upgrade would be worth it just for that As for the price of the first upgrade being the same as a small digicam, well, so what? I care about a quieter shutter on my M8; I don't care so much about buying an entry-level Nikon or Canon with a noisier shutter !! LOL!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 30, 2008 Share #60 Posted January 30, 2008 I just started a thread on questions and i will do one here as well but if you can get them down for us we can ask and hopefully get answers to them and i can also forward them onto Germany to Stefan Daniels . Leica questions - The GetDPI Workshop Forums and here http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/44597-leica-m8-announcement-questions.html#post468350 If I can pull from both forums that would be awesome to have all the details ready to go to leica . Thanks folks Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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