No M9, Only M8-2

[KM-25]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Man, as much as I love the M8, it is not my only digital camera.

 

The thought of spending $1,700 U.S. to "Upgrade" a camera that drives me nuts when I have to keep unscrewing IR filters to shoot Kodachrome in my M6 is not looking like a very good investment.

 

I'll keep an eye on all of of this, but it is getting a little weird for me....

[guidomo]

I can see the secondhand value of M8s falling by, let's say, €1200 if this is announced.

 

Even if the street price of the upgraded model remained constant I cannot see that happen, not 1200EUR. And if Leica uses this update as an excuse to increase the list price (again) then the second hand prices would remain strong. (And of course it depends on what value the potential buyers assign to the update. We still don't know what the 1200EUR update price will really give us.)

 

I general the possibility of updating old models should be good for the value retention of used M8s.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[rob_x2004]

If it is true it is positive news. If you can upgrade it means Leica isnt bailing out on a lemon.

If the camera stays the same and you can spend an inconsequential amount on an upgrade to keep you up to date why complain. I hate the comaprison thing, but what is an EOS1Ds1 worth?

 

For the pros it would be a god send, and fit in with regular CLA and anyway its a business expense, nothing. For the private guys and joe average, we can spend in confidence, and know if and when there is a real improvement we can upgrade for the price of a point and shoot.

 

Existing owners should be very relieved, and thankful. Your m8 wont be in warranty forever.

 

It would restore confidence with a number of people who think Leica are rat bags for landing a lemon on hallowed turf. You need to be able to buy confidently.

 

The number of tears to shutters, predominantly unexplained, must give rise to concern. Changing to something reliable well worthwhile, and probably cost effective. Leica dont want your camera back in solms under warranty nor do you.

 

First good news I have ever seen. Shame they cant undo some of the body design flaws like sealing and base plate attachment. It could have been a keeper for life.

 

It shouldnt necessarily mean a price rise. If fixed the M8 point blow will be cheeper for Leica to produce once and never have to see it again. My bet is price will up another grand though.

 

Half you guys are on drugs.

[Guest stnami]

Half you guys are on drugs

.................................. the other half wish they were

 

But if all this pans out as above well it will be worth my while...............

[lct]

If it is true it is positive news...

Matter of tastes i guess. Leica users would still have to use IR-cut filters but could not get the shutter speeds of a mere D70 if i understand well. Difficult to believe IMHO.

[wlaidlaw]

I was talking and commiserating with my friend Manuel (Artz) yesterday. Leica have sent his faulty M8 back to him after a month - untouched (the cover had not been removed, so the camera had not been opened). When asked why they had not repaired it, they replied that apparently they had "forgotten" to do it. If this is the level of their efficiency, what possible chance have they of coping with the demand for any upgrade. I have a feeling this may well be vapourware.

 

Wilson

[rob_x2004]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

LCT, if it is upgradeable then you have ongoing support. If ever the thing can be used without filters you can take advantage, then cool. I dont agree with filters either. There are a lot of things I dont like about the M8 and its lazy design solutions, but Leica cant build cameras to save themselves so thats not going to change. You need to be thankful the M8 delivers the files and they remember to use the M series lens bayonet.

 

I will be waiting till the camera is on the floor at the retail outlets before I decide. If it is good enough it is good enough. And Wilson, a lot of people would argue Leica themselves never look after anyone. Whatever, that isnt going to change any time soon either.

[adan]

Matter of tastes i guess. Leica users would still have to use IR-cut filters but could not get the shutter speeds of a mere D70 if i understand well. Difficult to believe IMHO.

 

Understood.

 

But then FILM Ms stuck with shutter speeds far below an FM2 or N8008 (for 20 years), precisely because the rubbery horizontal shutter was quiet - but incompatable with the higher speeds. Even Nikon's F3 and Canon's F-1(new) could get no higher than 1/2000 with a horizontal shutter.

 

One might just as well complain because the M6 can not (or could not) get the shutter speeds of a "lowly" EOS film Rebel, even at 6x the price.

 

The relative silence of the Leica M WAS a big deal for some shooters (and even encoded into law as the standard for courtroom use in at least one US jurisdiction ("no louder than a Leica M")).

 

Those who value relative quiet can get the upgrade - those who value 1/8000th sec. can skip the upgrade (or get an SLR).

 

Personally I have no idea whether this is just internet imaginings or a real possibility - guess time will tell. If real, I will wait until I get to hear the "quieter" shutter in operation before considering the upgrade.

 

Although with any electronic device, an extended warranty would be worth considering - but perhaps not $1800 worth considering.

[marknorton]

Even if the street price of the upgraded model remained constant I cannot see that happen, not 1200EUR. And if Leica uses this update as an excuse to increase the list price (again) then the second hand prices would remain strong. (And of course it depends on what value the potential buyers assign to the update. We still don't know what the 1200EUR update price will really give us.)

 

I general the possibility of updating old models should be good for the value retention of used M8s.

 

You may be right, but Leica will not need to increase the cost of the camera by €1200 to incorporate the upgrade in new production. There's extra logistics and replacement parts in the retrofit compared to just using the new "whisper-quiet" shutter instead of the old clunker in new production.

 

If the cost of the camera new increases by €300, you'd expect the cost of unmodified cameras to be depressed by the difference plus an extra hassle factor.

[peterv]

I can see the secondhand value of M8s falling by, let's say, €1200 if this is announced. What will we call unmodified cameras: M8 Classic?

 

Coming to a web-site near you; "Anatomy of an Ungraded Leica M8" or, "Spot where your €1200 went".

 

LOL

 

Can't wait to see that one... Where can we buy tickets?

 

BTW, I think you're right about the value of the 'Classic' falling due to the upgrade possibility.

 

Peter

[ArtZ]

I was talking and commiserating with my friend Manuel (Artz) yesterday. Leica have sent his faulty M8 back to him after a month - untouched (the cover had not been removed, so the camera had not been opened). When asked why they had not repaired it, they replied that apparently they had "forgotten" to do it. If this is the level of their efficiency, what possible chance have they of coping with the demand for any upgrade. I have a feeling this may well be vapourware.

 

Wilson

 

Wilson, I can’t remember when I phoned you the second time: After I called Leica or after Leica returned my call.

 

The point is I believe in this upgrade thing because Leica said to me that next month they will send FedEx to pick up the camera to my home to fix it at Solms when some new spare parts will be available. They asked me to wait for a while then and they will contact me back soon to let me know.

 

As I told Wilson, my second M8 (the one I got in September) is a real disaster. I keep having problems this camera from the beginning. I posted here the problems at the end of December or beginning of January before I sent the camera to Solms. As Wilson said, the camera was in Solms for almost 4 weeks and they even didn’t open it. The camera arrived yesterday in the same way it left Paris... they even forgot to replace the scratched top.

 

As some fanatic people here don’t want to hear any criticism about Leica, I just don’t care about sharing my impressions. The only thing I know is my first camera bought in June died 24 hours later and it had to be replaced for a new one; the second one is giving me problems from the beginning; it has taken 7 months to get my free IR-cut filters; my first M8 (the one which died) once it was repaired it returned to my dealer to be sold as new camera (Leica's choice); in more than a year Leica has not been able to produce a proper firmware to solve the problems we all know (AWB, mad scroll wheel, etc, etc); SDHC is still not working…

 

And above all this the prices keep going up and now Leica find a way to bill 1200 € proposing an “updated version” which will just probably correct some of the initial bugs. Honestly, I think it’s a bit too much…

 

PS: Wilson enjoy your Caribbean holidays <Grrrrrr> :-)

.

[tashley]

Leica cant build cameras to save themselves so thats not going to change.

 

 

Hmmm, now we know which 'half of us guys' category you fall into.

[ho_co]

... The thought of spending $1,700 U.S. to "Upgrade" a camera that drives me nuts when I have to keep unscrewing IR filters to shoot Kodachrome in my M6 is not looking like a very good investment...

The cost may or may not end up being that high. It's not official yet.

 

... Shame they cant undo some of the body design flaws like sealing and base plate attachment.

I'm unaware of any reports of camera failure due to 'sealing'; to the contrary, we've had several reports on the forum from users saying rain hasn't affected their cameras. And although I'm a bit annoyed at having to remove the baseplate to change cards, some people aren't. It may be that the baseplate design is part of the better-than-predicted rain resistance.

 

... The relative silence of the Leica M WAS a big deal for some shooters (and even encoded into law as the standard for courtroom use in at least one US jurisdiction ("no louder than a Leica M"))...

That was in Florida, and thanks to nothing other than the extreme efforts of a superb Leica salesman, Steve Kippert.

 

--HC

[lct]

...The relative silence of the Leica M WAS a big deal for some shooters... Those who value relative quiet can get the upgrade - those who value 1/8000th sec. can skip the upgrade (or get an SLR)....If real, I will wait until I get to hear the "quieter" shutter in operation before considering the upgrade...

So 1,200 euro would be the price to pay to get a true Leica as far as shutter noise and speeds so to speak, the red nose remaining for free...

Could make sense at this stage. I would probably wait and hear as well if i owned an M8 already...

[Ecaton]

Sounds rather unreal to me.

 

Upgrading required a terribly labour intense dis-assembling re-assembling process, executed at German wage levels (not even considering the logistics requiring redistribution via "detailing" rather than through dealers). An enterpreneurs nightmare and exactly the opposite of a platform strategy coupled with a high degree of automation (why don't they try to learn from Porsche!) which is the only feasible approach to move Leica as a company out of its economic misery over time.

 

Additionally, the upgrading fee does not look like a bargain either. I'd probably rather buy a D300 or E3 for this kind of money.

[jaapv]

I fail to see the excitement; this would be the scenario:

 

1.We will anounce an upgraded camera (most camera manufacturers do that)

2.Owners of an older type will be offered a retrofit at a fraction of the cost of a new camera (only Kodak did that before in the digital world)

 

Now what is wrong with that? It offers the customers three choices

 

1. Keep on using the camera as is, no hardship imo

2. Get it up to newest specification if so desired at a fraction of the cost of a new one

3. Buy an new one.

 

Where is the Canon retrofit for the 1DSII to the 1DsIII for instance? I bet the mkII owners would be glad to pay 2500 $ for that.

 

I really think the bitching is mindless.....

 

And at the moment it is just a hazy rumour anyway....

[lct]

...Now what is wrong with that? It offers the customers three choices: 1. Keep on using the camera as is, no hardship imo...

Except that your 'classic' M8 will loose a lot on the 2nd hand market i'm afraid...

[rob_x2004]

Start defending Leicas camera design and build Tim. I could do with a laugh.

Leica are good at optics for whatever reason.

 

Howard you miss my point. The base plate attachment and the deign/materials detail they sold short.

The principle of a base place I love, shame they didnt seal the camera up tighter than a nikonos with it. But its not fairyland. These things wont change.

 

I still think of it as very positive if they clean up the M8 and move on, rather than abandoning. I cant understand all the negative.

[Guest]

I just got off the 'phone with a major US stockist and he knows nothing about it, in fact he was completely incensed, fearing an angry backlash from recent purchasers.

 

 

This may already be old news but an official statement is due tomorrow.(pos today)

David Stevens heard the news officially yesterday 29/01/08.Their has to be some advantage in being a Leica dealer for getting on to 50 years.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ho_co]

Except that your 'classic' M8 will loose a lot on the 2nd hand market i'm afraid...

 

LCT--

That's the "photographer vs collector" argument.

 

A lot of people buy a Leica hoping to make (or at least not lose) money. But a lot buy the camera for picture taking.

 

I think Jaap's synopsis is correct. No other marque offers three choices, just as few offer a group of users as crazy as we are to keep this thread going.

 

--HC