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jaapv

Where has the smoke of battle gone?

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Well, maybe I have more than "a spot of intelligence", or maybe less, but I still believe Leica will fix, or try to fix, a couple of outstanding problems with the M8, notably the green streak artifact, which is really quite unacceptable. I also think you will see an AWB fix for the M8 from Leica, though I don't particularly care about that, personally.

 

 

 

Now that my pipe is lit and I'm in my cups.... ah yes.. the M9. No IR filters, full frame and ISO 20000. Can't happen too soon

 

I'm with you and second all your post Jamie, but i think something strange's in the air.

I've read this thread too "AWB copes much better than expected":eek:

Maybe many have resigned!

Can't believe that someone says "my m8's AWB is working great" considering the fact that it made ONE shot correct!

I still can't make a single AWB shot at home since i have a neon and a tungsten light in the same room: my M8 systematically goes wrong!

 

Ah yeah, there's that boring UV/IR filter too breaking my bXXXX every time i leave it on my lenses at night.... mmmm:mad:

 

Best

 

Maurizio

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Well, Maurizio, with tungsten and fluorescent mixed (and maybe daylight mixed in?) I cannot imagine ANY whitebalance being correct.

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Well, if they fix the AWB (for jpeg users), then they should really think about horrible results regarding sharpness ( there were threds about it...)

Remember that Dpreview text about m8, based on out of camera Jpgs, that made that camera look like some fancy gadget for rich people- with bad imager.

You can say anything against M8, but I put my printed file against D3 and Ds mk3 anytime...

As long as it is raw. And up to 320 iso ...

 

I was looking at cca 150x 250cm (70x100") print made at my friends print studio, at that new Epson 1100something, from a 1ds3 file ( some countryside at dawn shot) and was not so much impressed- not only the detail....

I

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Well, Maurizio, with tungsten and fluorescent mixed (and maybe daylight mixed in?) I cannot imagine ANY whitebalance being correct.

 

I can tell you that even my P&S lumix get better results every time!

these are the samples made switching off the neon lamp (no daylight mixed in being at evening).

Do i have to resign?

Hopefully i always shot RAW, but it would be nice sometimes to rely on jpg (when needed).

Looks like it's impossible im many situations

 

(first and second shot are set to AWB, the third is automatic in ACR)

 

Best

 

Maurizio

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P.S.

 

In the first, second and third shot only Tungsten lights were on!

And in these shots only a table lamp was lighting the scene (tungsten)!this is the most absurd!I really can't imagine how M8 makes WB in automatic mode!But i can only say that it's indecent for a 5000€ camera.

 

(the first picture is in AWB, the second is Automatic WB with ACR)

 

Very best

 

Maurizio

 

(ehehe... this is my smoke of the battle;) )

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Personally, Maurizio, I find auto in ACR consistently horrible... I generally use the camera presets if they look halfway decent and really create my WB in levels and curves in CS3. That is the only way I get someting decent imo, with any camera.

On my monitor the last one is too blue. How is "fluorescnet"and "tungsten"on the camera?. Those are normally spot-on.

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P.S.

 

In the first, second and third shot only Tungsten lights were on!

And in these shots only a table lamp was lighting the scene (tungsten)!this is the most absurd!I really can't imagine how M8 makes WB in automatic mode!But i can only say that it's indecent for a 5000€ camera.

 

(the first picture is in AWB, the second is Automatic WB with ACR)

 

Very best

 

Maurizio

 

(ehehe... this is my smoke of the battle;) )

 

These shots and those above illustrate the fine line of good white balance. Certainly there should be some correction, but the images that are fully corrected are no more accurate than the first. We are getting into the habit of creating whiter than white whites in scenes that actually register a slight tint to the human eye.

 

My M8 almost always gets the first shot wrong and after that will have quite excellent white balance until I turn it off. Wierd huh?

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...We are getting into the habit of creating whiter than white whites in scenes that actually register a slight tint to the human eye

 

This is not the case, i don't want the white to be whiter than it really is, and i could even not worry about my furniture's white, the problem is the Yellowish skin tone, and i really can't bear it!

 

best

 

Maurizio

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Skin tones - in my experience more post processing than RAW coversion.

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Personally, Maurizio, I find auto in ACR consistently horrible... I generally use the camera presets if they look halfway decent and really create my WB in levels and curves in CS3. That is the only way I get someting decent imo, with any camera.

On my monitor the last one is too blue. How is "fluorescnet"and "tungsten"on the camera?. Those are normally spot-on.

 

I use preset too. Constantly. so I second this.

I know that the last picture may seem a lot "blue", but it's really much near to the scene that i look at than the first shot.

Anyway, what i really need again, is a better performance on high iso.I can live with wrong AWB so far.

 

Best

 

Maurizio

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I think, Maurizio, that white balance is as much a user-determined parameter as is exposure, and certainly not an absolute value I'm sure, for instance, that a more bluish cast will go down excellently in the USA and certainly in Japan, but will be called "too blue" in Europe. And that does not even take personal taste into account.

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Skin tones - in my experience more post processing than RAW coversion.

 

This is true. But I could be satisfied too without an "absolute" result sometimes, and this unfortunately is not the case of our beloved M8 (most of the times, IMO).

 

Best

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Groan. Not more pictures of kitchens and messy desktops. I think the M8 problems have been beaten to death. They are what they are and there are plenty of workarounds. And now with the existence of programs like Lightroom there is really no reason to shoot jpegs with any camera as they can no be done so quickly in post. Maybe with sports and spot news but that's not really the M8s forte anyway.

 

Anyway, I shoot with AWB when lazy or just set a preset when I could be bothered or use Expodisc. At this point we all know the M8 is about workarounds. Love it or leave it. I was about to leave it for the longest time bit now that I finally have a body with minimal issues (only the occasional reboot) I'm finding the images it makes to be stunning. Its an M - it won't do everything. But its an amazing carryaround and the files have that certain Leica something about them that set them apart from the pack. And as long as one shoots at 320-640 they look very film like and few of the plasticky video look even many high end cameras can have (as long as you watch those highlights).

 

It was a frustrating year to say the least but I feel now as if I found my tool. It doesn't mean I wont still need my other cameras on occasion though.

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I think, Maurizio, that white balance is as much a user-determined parameter as is exposure, and certainly not an absolute value I'm sure, for instance, that a more bluish cast will go down excellently in the USA and certainly in Japan, but will be called "too blue" in Europe. And that does not even take personal taste into account.

 

Jaap - With all due respect, while the color temperature, or tint, or exposure of a photo is most definitely relative, subject to personal preference or whim, the concept of balance is, indeed, an absolute. We used to talk more in terms of gray balance and neutrals, and the term 'neutral' tended to be more clearly understood. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but 'white balance' seems to be a designation that has come with digital photography, and as can be seen in the "AWB copes much better" thread, has led to a complete confusion between balance and preference. In digital terms, balance, or neutality, is achieved when the neutral color in question has the same quantity of R,G,and B in it. 223,221,218 is not neutral, however much we might prefer it to the bluer 222, 222, 222.

 

I am particularly amazed that people see the AWB function in the M8 as being spot-on, as being much improved, as working well - since it only supplies three temp/tint options, and only one of those (3900/12) is applied to most indoor available lighting situations, no matter whether tungsten, fluorescent, daylight, or a mixture is present - the other two options come into play outdoors, or in studio controlled settings. Using the other temp setting presets available in the M8 yields much better results...

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Groan. Not more pictures of kitchens and messy desktops. I think the M8 problems have been beaten to death.

 

Yes, judging by the evidence posted here, M8 users are a pretty untidy lot and, what's more, they don't seem to care...

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Jaap - With all due respect, while the color temperature, or tint, or exposure of a photo is most definitely relative, subject to personal preference or whim, the concept of balance is, indeed, an absolute. We used to talk more in terms of gray balance and neutrals, and the term 'neutral' tended to be more clearly understood. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but 'white balance' seems to be a designation that has come with digital photography, and as can be seen in the "AWB copes much better" thread, has led to a complete confusion between balance and preference. In digital terms, balance, or neutality, is achieved when the neutral color in question has the same quantity of R,G,and B in it. 223,221,218 is not neutral, however much we might prefer it to the bluer 222, 222, 222.

 

I am particularly amazed that people see the AWB function in the M8 as being spot-on, as being much improved, as working well - since it only supplies three temp/tint options, and only one of those (3900/12) is applied to most indoor available lighting situations, no matter whether tungsten, fluorescent, daylight, or a mixture is present - the other two options come into play outdoors, or in studio controlled settings. Using the other temp setting presets available in the M8 yields much better results...

 

Yes - there is a physical 1:1 relationship to the original light. Howoever, I am talking about making photographs, and in that context it is an artistic choice. And most of us come from film - which has just one colour balance -or two if you count tungsten film. Still, amazingly our photographs were still spot-on then.

The explanation lies in the human brain. In real light it compensates, with prints to a lesser extent. Hence the uncertainty of whitebalance.

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I still get banding/gridding at high ISOs and low shutter speeds. Backfocus makes most lens only usable wide open. Sensor dust is still a problem and again reenforces the wide open only concept. I cannot get the UV/IR filters for my LTM lenses. Auto white balance is still a joke. Etc...

I think perhaps the reason people no longer post their problems is because they've given up and either accepted or moved on to another camera. Jaap, lack of people posting problems shouldnt be seen as a victory.

 

But thanks to the one poster who reminded me that my 1 year warranty is almost up. My M8 needs to go in. If they cannot fix the gridding then it's time to move on.

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I think 4 is the people who will be complaining whatever camera they are using and after about 6 months are well into about volume 3 of where Leica/ canon/ Nikon went wrong.

Brian

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The M8 craze is long past. Most everyone that wanted one has one and new owners are scarcer. Sales are simmering (way) down. Some folks have already dumped their M8 kits and are moving on to the next new camera (the D3), others have placed them with their other "great" cameras (in the closet). Others have devoted their "photographic" energies toward speculating on M9s and Leica's (potentially sad) re-entry into the reflex body market.

 

But some of us have settled in with the camera's warts and wonders and just enjoy it for what it is. That's what I've done.

 

In any of the above situations the time for online hand-wringing and gall spewing is long over. Most honeymoons are long over and the M8s and their owners are either living in separation, peaceful co-existence with infrequent contact, or wedded bliss.

 

But the time of M8 angst is long over.

 

Great post ,could not agree more.

Brian

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