APO-Telyt-R 180 f/3.4 + APO-Extender-R 2X near INFINITY

[KFo]

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Hello there R people!  I am an M shooter, but I have ventured off the farm for a particular project.  For this project my subjects are 2 -7 km away.  I am using a combination as in the title, with the addition of the Leica R-adapter M.  All this goes to my M10P and sits on a tripod.  It is a lot.  I'm sure you regular long shooters are rolling your eyes now.  For my normal documentary style work 50mm is positively claustrophobic and my norm is in either 28 or 35mm.  This voyage into the 180/360 is a learning experience.

I can only do this project in the winter because the haze of humidity, heat, and air pollution ruins the images so I work now as cooler weather begins.  Running tests from my terrace on a clear day, shooting objects between 1.2 and 3.65km away I dialled in the aperture that looks best with the 360mm combination.

Something I noticed when testing the 360mm combo was that a communication tower 3.65km away was not at infinity for this setup.   I setup on the other terrace and shot a building 4.5km away, then yesterday working on the project noted that a building 8.43km out was still not infinity.  I give up.  In the same test conditions, with only the 180 infinity is far but I find it at the 3.65km mark for sure.

Here is my question.  Is this typical infinity performance on an R camera for the 180 + 2X extender setup?  Don't get me wrong, I am surprised and pleased that this contraption works at all with an M camera.  The only reason I question is that with my typical tiny lenses for an "infinity" shot, I just wring the lens to the stop, f/8 and don't be late.

 

Edited yesterday at 06:29 AM by KFo

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[romanus53]

So if you are using the M10P with longer uncoupled lens, remember infinity is really infinity and only under best circumstances. Use EVF with magnification to adjust focus. Back in the good old days longer lenses had an infinity-index but could be focused beyond because the position of the final focal point on film or sensor depends on weather, atmosphere, filters, tolerances of equipment. Just scale-focusing will not be precise enough.

[KFo]

That is a good point.  One thing though — don't interpret my remark about how I operate my typical 28 or 35 M lens as how I am using the 180/360.🤠

For focusing, I am using the LV function, zoomed and with  a loupe.  I find that just the LCD is to small to properly evaluate focus vs not "wide open" even with focus peaking on.  Although peaking does help — except at very long distances (8km) last time out there was not enough contrast for peaking to latch onto anything past about 6km.

 Next trip out I will also take a dark cloth to shield from the sun as it is  proving to be unhelpful to focusing.

I am going to wind up using  this like a bizzare view camera.

I have a monastery that is 34.5 km out if, I ever see a clear enough day, I can check to see if that qualifies as infinity!

[Carlos cruz]

My wild guess is that the sum of tolerances on each adapter adds to error moving infinity closer. You could try R bellows to have more control on focusing. With extreme focal lengths good tripod and stable ground is everything, with longer exposure times even wind has to be taken into account. 

[jaapv]

And don't forget that even a clear atmosphere can optically distort the image for long range by movement in the air, giving the impression of not being in focus. The colder and more still the air the less distortion. At such distances a scoping setup should be more practical. - though mot necessarily better.  
Also, with the lens at f8 and a 2x extender you are well beyond the diffraction limit. This lens and APO extender will likely yield the best results at 4.0. You should also get a cheap M adapter; they usually focus beyond infinity .

This is a very special lens. It was designed as a surveillance lens which means that it was as close to diffraction limited as they could get and optimized at infinity wide open. 

[KFo]

49 minutes ago, jaapv said:

And don't forget that even a clear atmosphere can optically distort the image for long range by movement in the air, giving the impression of not being in focus. The colder and more still the air the less distortion. At such distances a scoping setup should be more practical. - though mot necessarily better.  
Also, with the lens at f8 and a 2x extender you are well beyond the diffraction limit. This lens and APO extender will likely yield the best results at 4.0. You should also get a cheap M adapter; they usually focus beyond infinity .

This is a very special lens. It was designed as a surveillance lens which means that it was as close to diffraction limited as they could get and optimized at infinity. 

That is the reason I choose this particular setup.

The beyond infinity focus is what is surpring me. At 8km the 360 is still a little shy of infinity or the stop!

I found on my setup, M10P with the 360 conglomulation, f/5.6 produced a slightly better result compared to wide open.  I choose it to get a little more DOF; trading shutter speed into the mix as well.  

With the 180 setup best is about f/6.7.  definately not wide open.

When I was testing, in the morning, I could already see heat waves from the sun heatng up the communication tower!  I was glad to be finished.

Picky picky this long range pbotography!

 

[masjah]

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Here is a direct quote from the instruction booklet of the 2X App Extender:

Some of the compatible Leica R Lenses listed can be focussed beyond infinity. This feature is retained when using the APO-EXTENDER-R 2x. The infinity point of the lens when used with the extender may be slightly different from that without, but this in no way affects the performance . Focussing must, therefore, always be carried out on the focussing screen of the camera. The instructions for the relevant lenses contain detailed information on this.

 

[Eclectic Man]

The distance markings on lens barrels are indicative only.  OK, Leica markings may in general be very accurate, but temperature may affect the lens mount ever so slightly, so the fact that you are restricted to winter shooting may be relevant.  Surely if the image is in focus, that is what really matters?

(If you have a filter on the 180, even a UV filter, that can affect image quality too.)

[KFo]

49 minutes ago, Eclectic Man said:

The distance markings on lens barrels are indicative only.  OK, Leica markings may in general be very accurate, but temperature may affect the lens mount ever so slightly, so the fact that you are restricted to winter shooting may be relevant.  Surely if the image is in focus, that is what really matters?

(If you have a filter on the 180, even a UV filter, that can affect image quality too.)

Of course!  I am focusing  carefully and the images reflect that.  So it works fine.

I was just surprised to find the 360 combo still short of infinity mark when focused at 8kms. I can descern the difference in terms of focus (turning the focus barrel ever so  slightly) between 4 and 6 and 8 kms.  Knowing the original purpose, I am just wondering how far "infinity" is for this combo.  

Generally working lenses 1/10 the focal length of this combo I've never so clearly observed where inifinity is or isn't located.  

I guess it is more curiosity than practicallity.

Edited 16 hours ago by KFo

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, KFo said:

That is the reason I choose this particular setup.

The beyond infinity focus is what is surpring me. At 8km the 360 is still a little shy of infinity or the stop!

I found on my setup, M10P with the 360 conglomulation, f/5.6 produced a slightly better result compared to wide open.  I choose it to get a little more DOF; trading shutter speed into the mix as well.  

With the 180 setup best is about f/6.7.  definately not wide open.

When I was testing, in the morning, I could already see heat waves from the sun heatng up the communication tower!  I was glad to be finished.

Picky picky this long range pbotography!

 

Most likely you are seeing the tolerance of the M adapter.

[UliWer]

Which sort of R-to-M-adapter do you use?

Did you try to use just the 180mm lens without the extender and get to the magnification you are looking for by cropping? In my experience the results by cropping are at least as good as with the extender (even with the 24 MP M10). Bear in mind that the extender costs a lot of light: f/3.4 will be f/6.8, f/5.6 will be f/11.2 etc. 

[KFo]

54 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Which sort of R-to-M-adapter do you use?

Did you try to use just the 180mm lens without the extender and get to the magnification you are looking for by cropping? In my experience the results by cropping are at least as good as with the extender (even with the 24 MP M10). Bear in mind that the extender costs a lot of light: f/3.4 will be f/6.8, f/5.6 will be f/11.2 etc. 

The Leica R-Adapter M.

 

2 hours ago, masjah said:

Here is a direct quote from the instruction booklet of the 2X App Extender:

Some of the compatible Leica R Lenses listed can be focussed beyond infinity. This feature is retained when using the APO-EXTENDER-R 2x. The infinity point of the lens when used with the extender may be slightly different from that without, but this in no way affects the performance . Focussing must, therefore, always be carried out on the focussing screen of the camera. The instructions for the relevant lenses contain detailed information on this.

 

Thanks fornthis, I did not get  manual nor did I consider  consulting one.

[KFo]

Okay.  Tonight Iwent out on the terrace to shoot the moon.  It is 11C here now.  The other day it was about 16C when I was shooting.

Tonight focusing on the MOON, and if that ain't infinity...   When focused, the lens is even further away from the infinty mark—that is closer to the 50M mark than the other day.

Thermal expansion...  So if were to go out when it is hot, say 30C, I would expect the lens to maybe reach the infinity mark by 8 or 10kms.  Maybe even closer but I won't be out at that time of year with this lens.

I see why they now make thise big telephotos in white nowadays.

Edited 14 hours ago by KFo

[KFo]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

Which sort of R-to-M-adapter do you use?

Did you try to use just the 180mm lens without the extender and get to the magnification you are looking for by cropping? In my experience the results by cropping are at least as good as with the extender (even with the 24 MP M10). Bear in mind that the extender costs a lot of light: f/3.4 will be f/6.8, f/5.6 will be f/11.2 etc. 

I expected to find this to be true.  Viewed "actual size" on my iMac 27" the 360 setup is more acute. Even viewed size for size ( both images zoomed so they are the same size but less than actual size) the 360 setup looks more acute. I found that surprising.

Maybe if I was going to have an issue with exposure time using the 360, the 180 might just win by virtue of being a couple stops faster.