Shutter lag or viewfinder lag or both

[kiwidad]

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On 11/6/2025 at 12:44 AM, Derbyshire Man said:

This is like any SLR in a way, you only know what you’ve got when it enters the frame. That’s what you’ve reproduced with an EVF. The fact it’s late due to processing delay doesn’t matter, you get what’s in the frame when you press the shutter button, what’s happened in the real world is immaterial, like taking a screen shot from a recorded YouTube video, the fact that the youtuber put the M11D down 12 months ago and is currently holding a X2D mk2 makes no difference to what you capture, you’ve captured the scene ‘as it is’. What is an issue however is the shutter lag between shutter press and capture. According to the red dot USA figures this is very short but Leica (I heard here) sources say up to 120ms. Personally I think 0.12 seconds is an eternity and not even slightly acceptable! It certainly feels more like 0.1s than 25ms on my m11p, m11d, m11m.  

I disagree, there is a strong lag between what is on the sensor by the time it reaches your eye on the visoflex on an m11. So when you see it in the visoflex it is no longer going to be the image you capture.

[Derbyshire Man]

15 hours ago, cnguyen said:

Get m11p instead . It has optical viewfinder duh.

This doesn’t work. I can reliably get a tennis swing at the point I decide with my canon 5d mk4 but not with any of my M11 series cameras. Despite them having OVF’s. There is a lag between shutter press of up to 120ms I read and what’s more Leica seemed to have said it varies depending on circumstances. That’s entirely unhelpful and I really don’t see any signs they’re taking it seriously/able to do anything about it or startup times. 

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, kiwidad said:

I disagree, there is a strong lag between what is on the sensor by the time it reaches your eye on the visoflex on an m11. So when you see it in the visoflex it is no longer going to be the image you capture.

The EVF lag is 60ms. When you account for all lags (reaction time, shutter lag), the EVF lag is not that "strong."

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

This doesn’t work. I can reliably get a tennis swing at the point I decide with my canon 5d mk4 but not with any of my M11 series cameras. Despite them having OVF’s. There is a lag between shutter press of up to 120ms I read and what’s more Leica seemed to have said it varies depending on circumstances. That’s entirely unhelpful and I really don’t see any signs they’re taking it seriously/able to do anything about it or startup times. 

The shutter lag in M11 should be much shorter if shooting in manual exposure mode.

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

This doesn’t work. I can reliably get a tennis swing at the point I decide with my canon 5d mk4 but not with any of my M11 series cameras. Despite them having OVF’s. There is a lag between shutter press of up to 120ms I read and what’s more Leica seemed to have said it varies depending on circumstances. That’s entirely unhelpful and I really don’t see any signs they’re taking it seriously/able to do anything about it or startup times. 

If the lag is always the same it cannot be hard to anticipate. You have to compensate for the human reaction time of 250 ms anyway. 

[Jean-Michel]

More  Canadian Loonie's worth:

Again, I do not have an M11, do have an M-P(240). The M11 exposure metering is done at the sensor, it does not have the option of metering off one of the shutter blades. That means that after the metering is done the shutter needs to close and re-open to make the exposure. Physics being physics, that means a delay, short, but delay nonetheless. In the case of Derbyshire's Canon 5d mk4 the metering is done off a sensor at the bottom of the mirror box and that does not cause any delay; the mirror does have to flip up before the shutter opens but the delay is rather minuscule.

With my M-P(240) there is an option to meter off the sensor; I never use that, unless I am using the EVF2, which in itself introduces delays.

Edited Wednesday at 04:43 PM by Jean-Michel
typo

[SrMi]

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20 minutes ago, Jean-Michel said:

More  Canadian Loonie's worth:

Again, I do not have an M11, do have an M-P(240). The M11 exposure metering is done at the sensor, it does not have the option of meeting off one of the shutter blades. That means that after the metering is done the shutter needs to close and re-open to make the exposure. Physics being physics, that means a delay, short, but delay nonetheless. In the case of Derbyshire's Canon 5d mk4 the metering is done off a sensor at the bottom of the mirror box and that does not cause any delay; the mirror does have to flip up before the shutter opens but the delay is rather minuscule.

With my M-P(240) there is an option to meter off the sensor; I never use that, unless I am using the EVF2, which in itself introduces delays.

The amount of delay matters more than its presence.

The increase in lag due to the shutter needing to close first is too slight to matter (per Leica).

 

[Derbyshire Man]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

If the lag is always the same it cannot be hard to anticipate. You have to compensate for the human reaction time of 250 ms anyway. 

I think that’s the thing it may not be entirely consistent. I’d take your point but I’m using OVF, LCD off, no visoflex and I can’t time it yet I can with my 5Dmk2 so it’s not reaction time. 

[kiwidad]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

If the lag is always the same it cannot be hard to anticipate. You have to compensate for the human reaction time of 250 ms anyway. 

The problem is in the evf you do not know the moment a fast moving object will enter the frame so unlike with a rangefinder there is no way to predict!

[jaapv]

Keep your left eye open 😉

[SrMi]

35 minutes ago, kiwidad said:

The problem is in the evf you do not know the moment a fast moving object will enter the frame so unlike with a rangefinder there is no way to predict!

That is the case only when shooting with a 50mm or longer lens, when you see more in the OVF than the lens sees. With M-EV1, you can engage 1.3x and know when a subject will enter the cropped area.

[kiwidad]

51 minutes ago, SrMi said:

That is the case only when shooting with a 50mm or longer lens, when you see more in the OVF than the lens sees. With M-EV1, you can engage 1.3x and know when a subject will enter the cropped area.

You’re talking about shooting at reduced resolution with a crop. It cannot be done at 60MP

a terrible and desperate workaround at best!

this is the unfortunate EVF limitation and why so many love the rangefinder you now call the OVF

[lct]

Bit of confusion here it seems. There are not only analog framelines in modern M cameras. There are electronic framelines too, like those of 1.3x or 1.8x digital zoom or perspective control as well. These allow one to see outside the framelines if needed. Which has little to do with whatever EVF limitation.

[charlesphoto99]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Keep your left eye open 😉

What if it's coming from your right? 😉 

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, lct said:

Bit of confusion here it seems. There are not only analog framelines in modern M cameras. There are electronic framelines too, like those of 1.3x or 1.8x digital zoom or perspective control as well. These allow one to see outside the framelines if needed. Which has little to do with whatever EVF limitation.

But they do not allow you to see outside the borders of the image frame because the camera cannot see outside the sensor. The electronic "framelines" as you call them  show you the crop inside the sensor and are thus not framelines but crop lines. Digital zoom is a digitally enhanced  crop, not an optical viewfinder with a wider angle of view than the actual lens.
An optical viewfinder can show you the scene outside the angle of view of the lens. An EVF can only show you a crop inside the angle of view of the lens. That is the difference between optical framelines in an optical viewfinder and electronic crop lines in an EVF.  This has everything to do with the fact that the EVF cannot see anything outside the recording of the sensor - which is the photograph that you are taking (or cropping)

When you mount a 90 mm lens on an EV1 there is no way that it can show you the field of view of a 28 mm lens, so it can never produce a 28 - or 35 or 50 or 75 - frameline either optical or digital  as there is no image outside the sensor. It can show you a 135-sized  crop line which Leica correctly identifies by the crop factor, though, or the framing of the perspective correction which will always shrink to remain inside the recorded image. These digital visualizations create your confusion. 
A
The optical viewfinder on a real M rangefinder on the other hand, has a permanent field of view of more than a 28 mm lens, so it is able to show you the framelines for the field of view for all supported focal lengths irrespective of the focal length mounted. 

On a side note,

the Angle of View (AOV)  of a lens/sensor ( film) combination indicates the maximum angle of light it can record and is expressed in degrees. It is determined by focal length and sensor ( film) format.
The Field of View (FOV)  is the AOV at a given subject distance and is expressed in meters. 
AOV and FOV are often mixed up which complicates some arguments. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Digital zoom is a digitally enhanced  crop, not an optical viewfinder with a wider angle of view than the actual lens.

Who said the opposite? In both cases i'm composing inside framelines, be they analog or digital, and it can be interesting, or not, to see outside those framelines, be they analog or digital.

[jaapv]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

Who said the opposite? In both cases i'm composing inside framelines, be they analog or digital, and it can be interesting, or not, to see outside those framelines, be they analog or digital.

You did and do, ( you still call crop lines framelines ) but then you are no techie. 
Your lines are a carry over from the Q but for all your lines the camera still records the sensor output. It is more precise to compose by cropping in the computer than by a few light bars in your viewfinder in that case

[lct]

19 minutes ago, jaapv said:

You did and do, ( you still call crop lines framelines ) but then you are no techie. 

It is the moment that counts. When i take my photo, i compose inside framelines, be they mechanical, electronic or otherwise. The rest is just cooking and i'm no cook either. But we discussed this already if i remember well. Sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree again 🤷‍♂️

Edited yesterday at 02:34 AM by lct

[jaapv]

You cannot disagree with plain facts. Well, I guess you can but it would not make sense. You are not composing in framelines, you are cropping in the camera using a digital guideline. Using framelines in any optical viewfinder means expanding your view outside the reach of your lens. Exactly the opposite. 

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[Kay P]

With the reported EVF lag and shutter cycle lag, it seems like the perfect tool for capturing the indecisive moment.