Returning to the fray, but which weapon should I choose?

[Kiwimac]

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Last year, I must have had a concussion. 
 

After two overseas trips with my M11-P, I sat down and looked through the many images that I took.  I was not especially thrilled: certainly there were some lovely ones but overall I was left feeling that there should have been more. 
 

Of course some of that can be attributed to user error but by no means all. 
 

It wasn’t the usual complaints like hard to focus etc, more the colour. Some images were like slide film colour, deep and vibrant. Lovely. More were not  and somehow LR couldn’t quite make them behave. 
 

In a fit of pique, I sold the lot and bought an X2D. If you like colour, that is without doubt right up there for the ability to produce amazing colour images. With the right lens choice it’s not much bigger or heavier than an M either. 
 

A year later, I’m missing the M. It’s not rational. No reason to kid myself that it is. It’s not. However I’ve had them since about 1997 and I miss it. A lot. 
 

I’ve got some funds and my intention is to buy an M11-?.  Any one of the current offerings really but I do feel that this might be the last one I buy for a long while as before long they’re not just going to be very expensive, they’re going to be stratospherically expensive. 
 

Due to that fact, I’m looking to choose one variant that is at least a little different from a vanilla one. 
 

1) P - although I suppose this is vanilla now

2) Monochrom - never had one, always fancied it but can it be the only one?

3) D - I grew up shooting film and owned M6 and M7 back then so this speaks to me. I do wonder about practicality as an only body. 
 

4) GBP - gorgeous to look at. Annoying that it doesn’t have the better screen glass and bigger internal memory though. 
 

5) Safari - if it happens and subject to knowing the spec I do like the Safari versions

6) M10-P Safari - outlier but my local dealer has a very mint one complete with the matching 50 Summicron. The pair won’t be split and price is about the same as an M11. 
 

Here in NZ every version of the M11 is within the equivalent of about US$600 of each other. M11M is most, then D, then P and cheapest is GBP. 
 

I realise that this should not be hard as there are large and obvious differences between most of them. However since they all recommend themselves to me in one way or another, I thought I’d ask those with actual ownership to comment!

 One thing is for sure. This time I’m using the body until it dies or gets traded for some as yet to be created successor!
 

 

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[Knorp]

Get the EVF-M: that one for sure is by no means "vanilla" ...

[Kiwimac]

16 minutes ago, Knorp said:

Get the EVF-M: that one for sure is by no means "vanilla" ...

Do you think it’s real?

[otto.f]

I cannot afford a X2D at the moment but I would be very scary for regret if I sold that. And a Monochrome alongside it would fit very well and is perfectly in line with the original M tradition: street photography in B&W 

Edited May 4 by otto.f

[Patarei]

6 minutes ago, otto.f said:

I cannot afford a X2D at the moment but I would be very scary for regret if I sold that. And a Monochrome alongside it would fit very well and is perfectly in line with the original M tradition: street photography in B&W 

I had a X1D II a couple of years ago, and I really liked the pictures coming out from that camera. I sold it to finance a Leica M246. I still have the M246.

Sometimes I regret that I sold the X1D, but I don't regret that I bought the M246. Its the best camera I ever had.

[Sandokan]

Stay with the X2D until the new M's are announced, either this year or next ... the M11 prices will drop. 

Or get a film M for the "real" experience. 

[otto.f]

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Thinking about an M11 with its magenta problem is very strange and risky when you have tasted the fruit of X2D.

25 minutes ago, Sandokan said:

Stay with the X2D until the new M's are announced, either this year or next ... the M11 prices will drop. 

Or get a film M for the "real" experience. 

An X2D is something else as an X1D and the M246 is a Monochrome indeed

3 hours ago, Patarei said:

I had a X1D II a couple of years ago, and I really liked the pictures coming out from that camera. I sold it to finance a Leica M246. I still have the M246.

Sometimes I regret that I sold the X1D, but I don't regret that I bought the M246. Its the best camera I ever had.

 

[earleygallery]

Sounds like GAS. Concentrate on your photography.

[Patarei]

2 hours ago, otto.f said:

Thinking about an M11 with its magenta problem is very strange and risky when you have tasted the fruit of X2D.

An X2D is something else as an X1D and the M246 is a Monochrome indeed

 

Yes of course, the X2D is something else, but still, the X1D is excellent camera that gives great files.

[Kiwimac]

2 hours ago, otto.f said:

Thinking about an M11 with its magenta problem is very strange and risky when you have tasted the fruit of X2D.

An X2D is something else as an X1D and the M246 is a Monochrome indeed

 

That’s one reason the M11M is on the list. 
 

The X2D is a fabulous device but although it’s reasonably quick given what it is, it’s still rather ponderous in comparison to the M. And the gorgeous files are truly enormous although it does have HEIF and the Phocus app on iOS is pretty good - much better than the Mac OS version. 
 

It’s not really a “pop it in your bag on the off chance” camera either, whereas the M is. 

[DadDadDaddyo]

Been there, done that. Fujifilm Medium Format Digital, but otherwise, at least from the outside, and to the extent one is able, I think I can understand. Creative folks are a restless bunch. 

And I didn't sell off the Leica gear, just couldn't, just won't. An M11 and an M11M are my basic kit. For this stumbling bumbler, a Leica rangefinder has simply been what a camera is, for nigh on to, omigosh, nearly six decades... sheesh......

That said, I do keep a pelican case holding a Hasselblad film body, some lenses, some film holders, and a Flexbody, just to try and sneak along with me when they maroon me on that deserted island. Picked them up back when people were going crazy selling them off or just leaving them by the side of the road. Madness.

Medium Format is glorious, but also can be, as you said, ponderous. Same with the Large Format stuff that I'll haul out, just for a certain form of ritualistic immersion in process, and of course, those astonishing negatives. 

But what I was going to say was this. A plain old vanilla Leica M11 is already pretty non-vanilla. 

It's like a window. It's up to you if you want to dress it up (with window dressing), but it's for looking through, and to let light in. If your primary objective is seeing, and not being seen, then go ahead and dress it up with whatever it takes to make it simply dissappear in your hands, to let you see. 

And then go see, and stuff what folks say. 

Finally, I would never tell anyone else that they had to live with a Monochrom as their only camera.

All the same, gun to my head, about to be marooned on that deserted island, the M11M is the one this old codger would reach for and cling to, for the utter, unblemished glory of the images it produces. I originally learned to see photographically in black and white, and think of color as an accessory. I've never seen files such as the M11M produces anywhere else. 

But second choice, no question, would be that plain old vanilla M11. 

Anyway, Enjoy!

And do remember simply to stuff what other folks say...

 

Edited May 4 by DadDadDaddyo
bloody typo...

[Smudgerer]

Actually, and yes I know perhaps this doesn't help Kiwimac, I have both the M11-D and the M11-M, my favourite of the two to take out is the M11-D, no question..........Also when I have converted the M11-D's DNG files to B&W in Lightroom, which I do often because I love B&W imaging, there's not a great deal of difference between those files and the pure B&W files from the M11-M. Of course some people will look long and hard enough at both results, compare them and say "sure there's a difference, look here, look there, the M11-M's files are better", and they maybe right............But if you are looking too hard at the technical in an image you're missing the point of making it by a mile..........I'd say go for the "D", if only for the experience.

Edited May 4 by Smudgerer
Grammar

[Kiwimac]

You’re correct, of course. 
 

The original M11 is discontinued I believe. So really I’d have to get the one with the glossy black paint and brass top/bottom, which probably brings it closest to the M10 of all the colour iterations of the M11. 
 

I too shot back and white when I was learning. We had a darkroom at school and the school were kind enough to pay for the bulk film, paper and chemicals. I used to do a lot of mountaineering at school too and for those trips my trusty Canon AE1 Program was usually loaded with colour slide film. 

I think most people who’ve seen my work would say that colour plays a significant role in it. 
 

Although I don’t really work a great deal as a photographer nowadays, I’m still a paid up member of the NZIPP. I’ve entered images in the annual Iris Awards (open only to professional photographers) in the last few years. Three images, one each year. They all got Silver Awards in the judging and one was then entered in the Asia Pacific awards and received Highly Commended. 
 

However, I can’t even use those to narrow the choice because one was shot on a Nikon D3s, one on a GFX100 and one on an M11 (the one that was awarded twice). However two were in colour and the other was black and white!

I try to remember that this isn’t a permanent choice: it’s likely to be so for a few years but no doubt I’ll end up with another body down the line when funds permit. 
 

So it’s probably a question of viewing the choice as a way of imposing a limitation for a period which will (hopefully!) lead to a body of interesting work, influenced by the choice. 

[Kiwimac]

13 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

Actually, and yes I know perhaps this doesn't help Kiwimac, I have both the M11-D and the M11-M, my favourite of the two to take out is the M11-D, no question..........Also when I have converted the M11-D's DNG files to B&W in Lightroom, which I do often because I love B&W imaging, there's not a great deal of difference between those files and the pure B&W files from the M11-M. Of course some people will look long and hard enough at both results, compare them and say "sure there's a difference, look here, look there, the M11-M's files are better", and they maybe right............But if you are looking too hard at the technical in an image you're missing the point of making it by a mile..........I'd say go for the "D", if only for the experience.

I’m sure the Mono files are sharper due to not being de-mosaiced and of course there is the high ISO ability as well. However, as you say sharpness certainly isn’t everything: I always point the sharpness fetishists to books of images taken in the Vietnam war: many are certainly very far from sharp, but they’re still stunning images that can move viewers even today. 
 

The D certainly intrigues me (gutted it’s not black paint over brass though!). 
 

Is there anything that the cameras with a screen have in their menus that isn’t available on the D through the Fotos app?

Edited May 4 by Kiwimac

[DadDadDaddyo]

21 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

Is there anything that the cameras with a screen have in their menus that isn’t available on the D through the Fotos app?

Sure!

You can turn the Review OFF.

Much easier than turning Review ON on a body without a screen...

[Dr Cron]

I’m new to a GBP. Looked at them all in the shop. Coming from film there’s actually no way I would have bought a digital M without a screen. Getting the exposure sorted is v different and makes a screen necessary at times.

[charlesphoto99]

So what happens when you go on your next trip and then come back and think the images with the M11x are ho hum? Sell the M11 and move to the X3D (which you know is coming)?

Hint: it's not the camera. We all have all had that happen, to some degree or another, and usually it's from a mix of things - not inspired, not able to get close (intimate) enough with where we're traveling, not pushing ourselves and stepping out of our comfort zone, and so on. Again, not the camera, though lens choice can have a significance. If one goes with only a 50, or say something weird like relying mostly on a 21, and then yeah, it may be the wrong choice of how to look at where you are. @Kiwimac only mentions bodies, but not lenses, which have significantly more to do with one's photography than the body choice, imho. An M10 with several lenses is going to give more bang for the buck than an M11 with just one. 

[Smudgerer]

1 hour ago, Kiwimac said:

The D certainly intrigues me (gutted it’s not black paint over brass though!). 
 

Is there anything that the cameras with a screen have in their menus that isn’t available on the D through the Fotos app?

First, I really like the regular M11 Black finish that's over the aluminum top plate, it's very hard wearing and although I never thought it would be much of a difference I really appreciate the lighter weight of that combo', for me the glossy black and the "brassing" that some like and even artificially encourage is sort of a silly fetish......So, the BP finish M11 wouldn't be for me anyway.

Secondly in regards to differences between the "D" and the "screened" M11's, yes I believe that there's a function or two that the D doesn't have via Fotos but the regular "LCD" screened M11's enjoy, but there's nothing "missing" in that regard for me with the 11D.........Anyway I don't use Fotos other than for the initial camera set-up and the rare change of a setting, ( like changing the choice of 18/36/60 resolution, but my M11's are pretty much nailed at 18mps, so that's rare ). I dislike Fotos anyway, especially so using it with a D to review, adjust, download or whatever whilst out with the camera, it's a "D" so what's the point of porting a iPhone along too to make up for no LCD?!

 

 

Edited May 4 by Smudgerer

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[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

So what happens when you go on your next trip and then come back and think the images with the M11x are ho hum? Sell the M11 and move to the X3D (which you know is coming)?

Hint: it's not the camera. We all have all had that happen, to some degree or another, and usually it's from a mix of things - not inspired, not able to get close (intimate) enough with where we're traveling, not pushing ourselves and stepping out of our comfort zone, and so on. Again, not the camera, though lens choice can have a significance. If one goes with only a 50, or say something weird like relying mostly on a 21, and then yeah, it may be the wrong choice of how to look at where you are. @Kiwimac only mentions bodies, but not lenses, which have significantly more to do with one's photography than the body choice, imho. An M10 with several lenses is going to give more bang for the buck than an M11 with just one. 

I was about to post a similar response to the first paragraph!

If you don't know what went wrong last time, you might be destined for the same disappointment by doing the same again.

[lct]

13 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

Some images were like slide film colour, deep and vibrant. Lovely. More were not  and somehow LR couldn’t quite make them behave. 

Keep your gear and improve your WB settings. Main (only?) culprit in the so-called magenta cast story and the so-called 'Blad superiority. If this doesn't work, forget LR and try a non-Adobe raw converter, or simply edit jpegs if you like the Leica look. WB is the key. Just my 2 cents.