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Would you accept "rebuilt" Leica M?


kl122002

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Hello, Google bring me to here. I have a Leica M4 bought since new and have been keep using till now.  I desperately wish to hear your voice. 

Recently I was helping my friend to look for his first Leica M, which is a M3 . I am not sure whether I am picky or not , but I still carry my 2000s Pocket Guide and asked my mate to read  some Leica books first . What surprised us a lot is there are so many Leica that has been modified or rebuilt and still selling expansively. Like, a DS M3 with late serial number, a body that could have the frame selector removed to fit in an early M3 mech (while the S/N on top plate doesn't match) , the lugs and the rewind dots doesn't match.... 🤢...the worst I have met would be a repainted (black) M2 that could be made from many parts . 

None of these mentioned M bodies sell cheap and its like a nightmare to us since we are learnt that Leica should be as much as original as possible. But seeing these , including some listing online action , which really drives us away. I wonder whether if this have happen in swapping lens glasses too.  I understand today we need parts for repair for sure, but now its like even the technician doesn't care about the details  .  I even being teased & laughed in shop when I spoke out.

Is it true that people these days doesn't care much about "original"  in Leica Ms  ? They even don't mind carrying a "rebuilt" camera ???? 🙄

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Early Leica M's always had grey areas when transitioning from one detail of build to another. Early Leica M's could be updated to later spec by Leica at the owners request. Very few cameras existing today haven't had a service or mechanical repair so some of the parts are sure to be newer than others. And, does it matter?

Shouldn't you be thankful that if your Leica M needs a repair there are people who can keep it working? So getting precious about an old Leica needs to be put into some perspective. How much of a 70 year old classic Ferrari remains as it left the factory, the common answer is 'very little'. There are $30,000,000 cars that have had their body completely rebuilt, had their chassis straightened four of five times, new bits of metal grafted in all over, and are now running on modern reproduction tyres that look the same as the old ones but offer more grip, new oils, new techniques for re-building the engine to give it more performance, and still it costs $30,000,000.

If you've done due diligence you have the choice of what to buy. If in doubt only buy from an authorised dealer, it's that simple.

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Unless you want to buy a museum piece, which is still likely to have been repaired during its lifetime, hunting for a “pure” factory historic Leica is a fools errand. 

These days there are collectors who buy new cameras and never even open the box so that the camera is as it left the factory. 

Back in the 50s, people bought cameras and used and repaired them. Which is the way that it is supposed to be. 

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The company itself was doing factory conversions, upgrades, and parts replacements from the earliest point in Leica's history.  See for example:

So what you are inclined to reject as not "original" is actually the result of a generational shift in attitudes.  Cameras were not disposable goods rendered obsolete after a few years, but machines that their owners could repair and upgrade on an ongoing basis.  Some collectors are fascinated by the long history of a camera.  Others like you might prefer an "original" camera with no apparent history, and perfect/mint examples of such "originals" have a higher market value because they are significantly rarer.

Anyway, there's no wrong preference or interest.  Up to you what you prefer to buy.

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4 hours ago, M9reno said:

The company itself was doing factory conversions, upgrades, and parts replacements from the earliest point in Leica's history.  See for example:

So what you are inclined to reject as not "original" is actually the result of a generational shift in attitudes.  Cameras were not disposable goods rendered obsolete after a few years, but machines that their owners could repair and upgrade on an ongoing basis.  Some collectors are fascinated by the long history of a camera.  Others like you might prefer an "original" camera with no apparent history, and perfect/mint examples of such "originals" have a higher market value because they are significantly rarer.

Anyway, there's no wrong preference or interest.  Up to you what you prefer to buy.

Spot on, Alfonso. I have a large collection of vintage Leicas and I suspect that less than 10% of them are totally original, particularly very early items such as the I Model A. It all depends what the OP is looking for. If he/she just wants a camera to use then what needs to be checked are the functional aspects of the camera. If they are looking for a camera in original condition, then the search will be longer and the price will be much higher.

William 

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On 10/30/2024 at 12:20 AM, kl122002 said:

... I wonder whether if this have happen in swapping lens glasses too. ...

Bodies are one matter, lenses another, regarding repair/rebuild/replace: many mechanical parts did exist also as factory spares, and many are still around today; also, some little parts can be rebuilt / "cloned" by a good lab/artisan (including some clever members of this forum 🙂), and if well done are fully respectable ; lenses are  very critical because optical glass is a complex commodity (in term of tech specifications), delicate to be machined, critical to be assembled expecially whwn matched/cemented to other glass components. I am not 100% sure, but I think that Leitz did NOT provide spare glass components to its authorized repairers... lens repair, if possible, was a factory task. So : lenses can be cleaned/repolished... but those operations are much less frequent than mechanical repairs : a "broken Viewfinder" often can be repaired, a lens with a big crack on the front element is probably dumped out (in case, with some mechanical component to be saved as spare) 

In the prevous posts I think that all has been smartly explained about what means to have a Leica M good for use : abut lenses imho the question is simple : if you find, say, a Summicron 50 that looks fine and works fine, it's highly probable that its glass is fully original , or well repolished, or maintained by factory ;  recoating is maybe the only operation that, in theory, can be carried on by a 3rd party in a someway non clever/not like original matter: a good reseller can be trustable in clearing some detail if you have some doubt on a specific item 

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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12 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Bodies are one matter, lenses another, regarding repair/rebuild/replace: many mechanical parts did exist also as factory spares, and many are still around today; also, some little parts can be rebuilt / "cloned" by a good lab/artisan (including some clever members of this forum 🙂), and if well done are fully respectable ; lenses are  very critical because optical glass is a complex commodity (in term of tech specifications), delicate to be machined, critical to be assembled expecially whwn matched/cemented to other glass components. So : lenses can be cleaned/repolished... but those operations are much less frequent than mechanical repairs : a "broken Viewfinder" often can be repaired, a lens with a big crack on the front element is probably dumped out (in case, with some mechanical component to be saved as spare) 

In the prevous posts I think that all has been smartly explained about what means to have a Leica M good for use : abut lenses imho the question is simple : if you find, say, a Summicron 50 that looks fine and works fine, it's highly probable that its glass is fully original , or well repolished, or maintained by factory ;  recoating is maybe the only operation that, in theory, can be carried on by a 3rd party in a someway non clever/not like original matter: a good reseller can be trustable in clearing some detail if you have some doubt on a specific item 

I agree with everything you say, Luigi, but I would point out that there are lens modifications from the very early days which were carried out by the factory, sometimes as part of so-called 'upgrades'. Typical of this would be modifications of 33mm mount fixed 50mm Elmar lenses on I Model As to 39mm LTM mount interchangeable lenses, either standardised or non standardised. The same lens elements would be used. These usually have no serial number and are somewhat short in physical length compared to a 'typical' Elmar.  I actually have one which has the 3 digit matching number for a Non Standardised I Model C, which had started out in life as a 4 digit SN I Model A (SN 2958) from 1928 - see pictures below

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There are other conversions such as those made to Summars to convert them from the Rigid model to the Collapsible model. 

The work done by Leitz/Leica technicians is usually first class. I agree that it is usually easier to do mechanical work on an old camera than it is to do optical work on an old lens

At this time, there is probably more skill set as regards older mechanical items outside the Leica firm than there is inside. In the case of Leitz Auction they bought the workshop equipment of the legendary camera mechanic Ottmar Michaely who was retiring. He has trained some young people in Vienna, including a young watch repairer who I have met on a visit to Wetzlar, to use his workshop equipment. So, hopefully, the tradition will live on.

William 

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My Leica m3 came to me and it did work but the images where blurry. 
 

So I send it to Leica and they repaired it to the extend that I can take pictures again. 
 

and I am very happy with this rebuild. 
 

to me the camera is a tool. If it needs to be fixed , I go and let it fix. 
 

I may collect cameras some day , but to me they are only tools that serve a purpose. 
 

 

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7 hours ago, willeica said:

.... I would point out that there are lens modifications from the very early days which were carried out by the factory, sometimes as part of so-called 'upgrades'..

 

That's perfectly true, William : my intent, considering the OP doubts, was evidencing that if an "original" M body bought today can have some modifications/parts that come from 3rd parties' work/maintenance,  a lens is quite difficult that include parts of this kind.

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said:

That's perfectly true, William : my intent, considering the OP doubts, was evidencing that if an "original" M body bought today can have some modifications/parts that come from 3rd parties' work/maintenance,  a lens is quite difficult that include parts of this kind.

I have Ms with replacement parts e.g. rear doors, but they work perfectly. Then there is all the mythology about having perfect 'L Seals' which can mean that nobody has put a screwdriver near the camera for over 50 years. There are many issues with lenses including fungus, lens cement, elements out of alignment, oil on aperture blades, stuck focus and aperture rings, rangefinder matching etc, etc. Not only have the lenses to be broken down into individual parts and elements for repair/service, they have to be put together correctly and replacement parts are very hard to come by many years after production has ceased. 

William 

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On 10/29/2024 at 11:20 PM, kl122002 said:

Is it true that people these days doesn't care much about "original"  in Leica Ms  ? They even don't mind carrying a "rebuilt" camera ???? 🙄

It depends on the camera. 'Rebuilt' covers a pretty broad range of situations. A thorough service by an expert technician may involve major disassembly and reassembly, which you might call a rebuild. Some cameras might have had a small number of components replaced by something a bit different, either because the owner preferred to make the change (e.g. to a different style of wind-on lever) or because the original part was no longer available, requiring substitution by a later Leica part (which might be an improvement) or even a third party component (e.g., one UK technician now manufactures their own brightline masks for older M series bodies, a Japanese supplier makes new beamsplitter mirrors for the LTM cameras, and a Dutch technician is testing a new meter board for the M6). For many users, this sort of thing won't matter and the change might even be preferable (collectors, of course, see things very differently!). At the other end of the scale, there are 'FrankenLeicas' that seem to have been put together from whatever was in the parts bin, sometimes by less expert technicians - e.g., there are 'M3' cameras that have had their finders replaced by the M2 or later style because the repairer lacked the skills to restore a separated prism. These cameras tend to be less well regarded, though they may suit some users.

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