M11-D review by an actual D photographer?

[LeicaM60]

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Would love to hear from actual D photographers. I’ve been a screenless “D” photographer since 2015. Came to the M60 from an MP after the last local film development lab closed and following a brief ownership of M-P (coming from film M body, I didn’t like the flow of an M with a screen).

The M60 is a joy to hold and use but, to me, body thickness, low light performance and the required thumbs up left me wanting more (lack of strap lugs wasn’t an issue since I tend to use half cases with my Ms and Luigi makes a beautiful M60 half case with lugs that can accept any strap). So when the M10-D was announced, I got one.

The M10-D for me is a perfect camera. The built in thumb support makes holding the camera with one hand the exact same experience as with my old (and missed) MP. Loved the relocation of ISO dial from the back (which required two fingers) to the upper side (one finger while shooting), loved the additional exposure compensation dial in the back (similar to the M7) and loved the classic black chrome finish. I set it up in the app once and haven’t used the app since. True hybrid analog/digital workflow with the convenience of digital files directly from the camera instead of the additional steps of developing film and scanning negatives. Just perfect (for me).

Then came the M11-D. Not sure where to start. This shouldn’t even be called an M in my opinion. Yes, from a technical point of view, it’s superior. M11-P vs M10-P. But that’s not relevant here in my view. These screenless D cameras are not about internal memory, USB-c connectivity, Foto app, number of mega pixels. They are all about a different mindset and experience. Holding a timeless camera body in your hand with your thumb pressed against the film advance lever, focusing your attention on the subject free of distractions, having an image in your head not knowing whether you were actually able to capture it, the sound of the mechanical shutter at the decisive moment… But the M11-D lacks all of that. Gone are the traditional center weighted metering, brass top and bottom plates, film advance lever, physical exposure compensation dial, decisive single mechanical shutter sound and feel. For me, I couldn’t find any advantages to this new M11-D over the M10-D and even if I was interested in the advantages the M11 offers, I would just get an M11 or M11-P. 

If I recall correctly, someone on this forum once said that he loves the idea of an M11-D because some people just have to have the latest and it would give him the opportunity to purchase an M10-D at a lower price. I couldn’t agree more. What am I missing?

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[hdmesa]

It's easy to get irritated when you have a perfect camera, but the version that replaces it seems to fall short. Does that mean you indeed have the perfect camera, and you should be happy? I would think so.

[Al Brown]

32 minutes ago, LeicaM60 said:

The M10-D for me is a perfect camera.

There. It is already perfect. Why would you think you need something more? You don't, and you even made all the facts clear. Be sure you are not missing anything.

[hdmesa]

53 minutes ago, LeicaM60 said:

...The M10-D... The built in thumb support makes holding the camera with one hand the exact same experience as with my old (and missed) MP.

I'm ambivalent about not having the lever on my M11-D, but I am irritated by the "Made in Germany" print on the back top that is now centered, which makes the thumb grip cover up half of the words. Who in their right mind would have designed it this way? Did they not want us to use the thumb grip? Did they think we wouldn't care that with the thumb grip attached, the camera says, "Made in..." The least they could have done would have been to release a special thumb grip for the M11-D that lets the lettering show. Perhaps Thumbs Up will make one specific to the D, but I doubt it given the short run of D cameras.

 

53 minutes ago, LeicaM60 said:

...The M10-D... Loved the relocation of ISO dial from the back (which required two fingers) to the upper side (one finger while shooting), loved the additional exposure compensation dial in the back (similar to the M7) and loved the classic black chrome finish. I set it up in the app once and haven’t used the app since. True hybrid analog/digital workflow with the convenience of digital files directly from the camera instead of the additional steps of developing film and scanning negatives. Just perfect (for me).

Disagree on the ISO dial and exposure comp. This was a huge improvement on the M11-D because it's a simplification. Its implementation on the M10-D was a complication. On the finish, I agree. Aluminum with the M11 black paint was a huge miss. This should have been brass underneath just like the 2022 M6, weight increase be damned. The app: you can also set it up once on the M11-D and never go back to the app. No difference.

 

53 minutes ago, LeicaM60 said:

Then came the M11-D. Not sure where to start. This shouldn’t even be called an M in my opinion...

Maybe. Just maybe if you hear yourself saying to yourself, "I don't know where to start", perhaps you shouldn't?

 

53 minutes ago, LeicaM60 said:

These screenless D cameras are not about internal memory, USB-c connectivity, Foto app, number of mega pixels. They are all about a different mindset and experience. Holding a timeless camera body in your hand with your thumb pressed against the film advance lever, focusing your attention on the subject free of distractions, having an image in your head not knowing whether you were actually able to capture it, the sound of the mechanical shutter at the decisive moment… But the M11-D lacks all of that. Gone are the traditional center weighted metering, brass top and bottom plates, film advance lever, physical exposure compensation dial, decisive single mechanical shutter sound and feel. For me, I couldn’t find any advantages to this new M11-D over the M10-D and even if I was interested in the advantages the M11 offers, I would just get an M11 or M11-P. 

This is a strange thought processes. Taken to its logical extreme, you should be shooting the a film MP. 

Traditional center-weighted metering is not gone. It's just accurate now because the meter reading is taken off the sensor. No more shitty and incorrect metering jumps like all digital Ms prior to the M11 when using the shutter blade metering. The only downside is the change in shutter action, and that has been beaten to death already in M11 conversations over the last two years, so no need to rehash on an M11-D specific thread. Of course the M11-D would work like this because the M11 does.

The rear wheel on the M11-D is the physical exposure comp wheel. That's the most used function on a digital M for me, and I don't want to mess with a giant rear dial unless it could have been operated with one finger. So just as you lament not being able to adjust ISO with one hand, the same could be said for exposure compensation. Most of us change ISO much less often than exposure comp. And the M11-D rear ISO wheel is perfect. Just like the MP and M-A. Perfect.

 

53 minutes ago, LeicaM60 said:

...even if I was interested in the advantages the M11 offers, I would just get an M11 or M11-P. 

I've owned M11 and M11M. I still chose the M11-D. Not wanting a rear screen is not wanting a rear screen. And I'm not going "backward" to the M10-D. I don't want the M10's shitty shutter blade metering and shitty battery life.

 

53 minutes ago, LeicaM60 said:

...someone on this forum once said that he loves the idea of an M11-D because some people just have to have the latest and it would give him the opportunity to purchase an M10-D at a lower price. I couldn’t agree more. What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. Use what works for you!

Edited September 28 by hdmesa
formatting

[Smudgerer]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

 

I've owned M11 and M11M. I still chose the M11-D. Not wanting a rear screen is not wanting a rear screen. And I'm not going "backward" to the M10-D. I don't want the M10's shitty shutter blade metering and shitty battery life.

You're not missing anything. Use what works for you!

Well that stole my thunder hdmesa...........You've pretty well said everything i was going to type out, and perhaps more.

Just adding this, I had a M10-D from new from the outset, from it's release and as I have said before here on the forum it was easily my favourite digital M up to the day I sold it earlier this year, why did I sell it? My copy was plagued with electronic troubles and it spent more time at Wetzlar than with me, I really liked it none the less but in the end gave up on it and traded it in. The M10's 24mp sensor is for me is the best sizing for a Leica M, I did like the faux winder / thumb rest, I hated the nasty rear on/off/wifi/exposure compensation wheel, I disliked that Leica moved the on/off switch from where my Leica M muscle memory always wanted to find it, around the shutter release, and yes the battery life wasn't that great but I could just about get a day out of it, I don't take a lot of frames..........But accidentally switching the rear switch to Wifi which happened too many times did strand me annoyingly power-dead a few times.

I recently stepped up to the M11-D, after swearing up too many times and down that I had no need to go beyond the M10's, Leica frailty strikes again. With the M11-D I have three resolutions to choose from and mainly since getting the camera it's been locked on 16mp and I am impressed with that output. I don't see myself using the full 60mp much if ever. Choice is good though. Metering? On the same page, the M11-D's is better. Battery life? Well we all know that answer..........I confess to two or three days of confusion in setting the M11-D up, but now I think like with the "gone" M10-D I can forget connecting with an iPad other than perhaps to change the sensor resolutions, ( I don't think you can do that on camera, but wouldn't that be nice? ). I do not use an iPhone/smart 'phone anymore and to have to carry one around with a camera would be annoying and totally out of context with a D. I don't care that the camera is not Leica "regular" Black Paint or brass topped, in fact I like it's lightness compared to the M10s, and I like the new "grippy" black paint finish too.

A Thumbie functions just as well on the M11-D, so even the faux winder lever is not missed, well not too much anyway...........But yes, I still wish that Leica kept that very useful oddity.

Sure there's more, boringly more, but in the end it is a move I am glad I made............My only "crossing the fingers" wish is to hope that Leica does not abandon the M11-D in regards to firmware and adding to it's capabilities and improving it's operational set-up.........This is what Leica did with the M10-D, I hope that's not going to be repeated with the M11-D.

 

[Robert Blanko]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb LeicaM60:

 

Would love to hear from actual D photographers. I’ve been a screenless “D” photographer since 2015. Came to the M60 from an MP after the last local film development lab closed and following a brief ownership of M-P (coming from film M body, I didn’t like the flow of an M with a screen).

The M60 is a joy to hold and use but, to me, body thickness, low light performance and the required thumbs up left me wanting more (lack of strap lugs wasn’t an issue since I tend to use half cases with my Ms and Luigi makes a beautiful M60 half case with lugs that can accept any strap). So when the M10-D was announced, I got one.

The M10-D for me is a perfect camera. The built in thumb support makes holding the camera with one hand the exact same experience as with my old (and missed) MP. Loved the relocation of ISO dial from the back (which required two fingers) to the upper side (one finger while shooting), loved the additional exposure compensation dial in the back (similar to the M7) and loved the classic black chrome finish. I set it up in the app once and haven’t used the app since. True hybrid analog/digital workflow with the convenience of digital files directly from the camera instead of the additional steps of developing film and scanning negatives. Just perfect (for me).

Then came the M11-D. Not sure where to start. This shouldn’t even be called an M in my opinion. Yes, from a technical point of view, it’s superior. M11-P vs M10-P. But that’s not relevant here in my view. These screenless D cameras are not about internal memory, USB-c connectivity, Foto app, number of mega pixels. They are all about a different mindset and experience. Holding a timeless camera body in your hand with your thumb pressed against the film advance lever, focusing your attention on the subject free of distractions, having an image in your head not knowing whether you were actually able to capture it, the sound of the mechanical shutter at the decisive moment… But the M11-D lacks all of that. Gone are the traditional center weighted metering, brass top and bottom plates, film advance lever, physical exposure compensation dial, decisive single mechanical shutter sound and feel. For me, I couldn’t find any advantages to this new M11-D over the M10-D and even if I was interested in the advantages the M11 offers, I would just get an M11 or M11-P. 

If I recall correctly, someone on this forum once said that he loves the idea of an M11-D because some people just have to have the latest and it would give him the opportunity to purchase an M10-D at a lower price. I couldn’t agree more. What am I missing?

 

[Robert Blanko]

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Sorry, the quotation did not work well…

What I wanted to point out: center weighted metering is of course still there - maybe more difficult to select without app. But with the app, it‘s selected quickly.

[hdmesa]

36 minutes ago, Robert Blanko said:

Sorry, the quotation did not work well…

What I wanted to point out: center weighted metering is of course still there - maybe more difficult to select without app. But with the app, it‘s selected quickly.

I originally set my D up with Center Weighted because it was my favorite metering mode on the M11/M11M. I like it because it ignores the edges of the frame where vignetting when shooting wide open can trick other metering modes into overexposing. But I'm also trying out Highlight Weighted, and so far I may like it better for the D. I like it because it's more of a "set it and forget it" metering mode. With Highlight Weighted, the only time I have to use negative exposure comp would be in very extreme situations, such as a subject in a small patch of sunshine indoors and everything else in dark shade. And since we only get 3 stops of exposure comp on either side of zero, Highlight Weighted makes those stops on the negative side of the exposure count for more. The only downside to Highlight Weighted would be if you're shooting for high-key exposure and trying to blow the highlights – getting a window to be completely white and glowing for example.

Edited September 28 by hdmesa

[f8low]

More a first impression than a review but by an actual-D photographer 

 

[egrossman]

8 hours ago, hdmesa said:

II've owned M11 and M11M. I still chose the M11-D. Not wanting a rear screen is not wanting a rear screen. And I'm not going "backward" to the M10-D. I don't want the M10's shitty shutter blade metering and shitty battery life.

I agree with almost everything you said except for the built-in thumb support from the M10-D and the "shitty" battery life which I never experienced in over 4 years of ownership.

Don't get me wrong, I still sold the camera in favor the the M11-D, but I do miss my rewind lever.

My 2 cents.

Erik

[fenykepesz]

i agree with @Smudgerer and @hdmesa in practically almost all points you raised in your m10d and m11d comparisons.  i used the m10d for 5½y and my verdict is that it was a fantastic tool with the only annoyances of those easily blown out highlights, and in that respect perhaps the not-so-reliable shutter blade metering, and that cursed power/wifi wheel at the back.

however, using the m11d for a few days i know it's the better camera for me for quite a few reasons, be that obviously the improved sensor technology, 64ASA/ISO, then the buttons and functions that are now at the right place (for me) such as ISO dial, power switch, USB connector, exposure compensation hidden in a thumb wheel i will anyway never make use of, and not to forget about those various electronic gadgetries via FOTOS (i will also gratefully neglect).

convenient is the USB connectors' dual function for charging and data connection.  the latter's PTP protocol presents luckily both internal and SD card partitions which i easily read and pull data from with a bash script to my linux box.  however it would help if the camera didn't fall into sleep mode (after 2min in my case) while data gets transferred : a feature 'upgrade' with the next firmware version ?

the next time my son passes by with his iphone i will change back from center-weighted (an approach i use since i started taking photos some 45y ago and i had chosen at the LeicaBoutique 3d ago) to the factory default multi-field, or even to highlight weighted metering.

that Youtube first-look video by the swiss person from Zürich - a city i lived in myself for two decades - who is not an m10d user but has long experience with the M-D 262 - i feel is not so relevant for m10d users who are thinking about upgrading to the next M*D.

the only and first strange thing that happened today afternoon with my m11d is that the camera clock suddenly advanced by some 4h - from 13:02:05 to 17:24:17 - for no apparent reason !  i hope very much that that was a one time glitch only !

now, the topic of that missing thumb rest : although the m11d feels lighter and hence eases the strain in my right hand, it is the ergonomic advantage of a far enough protruding arm that cannot be denied in my opinion.  as said elsewhere i am thinking about designing a new foldable thumb rest to snap-on onto the camera without touching the hot shoe.  will see if that brings something.  i don't like the idea of standing out thumbies and alike.

in sum, i don't regret the switch from the m10d to its successor, the m11d.  the m11d is for me the absolute culmination for a camera design that lets me oldtimer work undistracted like with my previous cameras such as the Mat-124G, 35SE, 2.8GX, 500C, F3, OM4/Ti or 690GX.
 

Edited September 29 by fenykepesz

[swatch]

21 minutes ago, fenykepesz said:

i agree with @Smudgerer and @hdmesa in practically almost all points you raised in your m10d and m11d comparisons.  i used the m10d for 5½y and my verdict is that it was a fantastic tool with the only annoyances of those easily blown out highlights, and in that respect perhaps the not-so-reliable shutter blade metering, and that cursed power/wifi wheel at the back.

however, using the m11d for a few days i know it's the better camera for me for quite a few reasons, be that obviously the improved sensor technology, 64ASA/ISO, then the buttons and functions that are now at the right place (for me) such as ISO dial, power switch, USB connector, exposure compensation hidden in a thumb wheel i will anyway never make use of, and not to forget about those various electronic gadgetries via FOTOS (i will also gratefully neglect).

convenient is the USB connectors' dual function for charging and data connection.  the latter's PTP protocol presents luckily both internal and SD card partitions which i easily read and pull data from with a bash script to my linux box.  however it would help if the camera didn't fall into sleep mode (after 2min in my case) while data gets transferred : a feature 'upgrade' with the next firmware version ?

the next time my son passes by with his iphone i will change back from center-weighted (an approach i use since i started taking photos some 45y ago and i had chosen at the LeicaBoutique 3d ago) to the factory default multi-field, or even to highlight weighted metering.

that Youtube first-look video by the swiss person from Zürich - a city i lived in myself for two decades - who is not an m10d user but has long experience with the M-D 262 - i feel is not so relevant for m10d users who are thinking about upgrading to the next M*D.

the only and first strange thing that happened today afternoon with my m11d is that the camera clock suddenly advanced by some 4h - from 13:02:05 to 17:24:17 - for no apparent reason !  i hope very much that that was a one time glitch only !

now, the topic of that missing thumb rest : although the m11d feels lighter and hence eases the strain in my right hand, it is the ergonomic advantage of a far enough protruding arm that cannot be denied in my opinion.  as said elsewhere i am thinking about designing a new foldable thumb rest to snap-on onto the camera without touching the hot shoe.  will see if that brings something.  i don't like the idea of standing out thumbies and alike.

in sum, i don't regret the switch from the m10d to its successor, the m11d.  the m11d is for me the absolute culmination for a camera design that lets me oldtimer work like with my previous cameras such as the Mat-124G, 35SE, 2.8GX, 500C, F3, OM4/Ti or 690GX.
 

Congratulations of finally get your M11D.

Set sleep mode off, I labour it by not allowing my M11D to sleep until finishing photography.

Glad of knowing one more happy M11D user and wish you have a nice Sunday.

[LeicaM60]

Thanks for the feedback from those who made the switch from M10-D to M11-D. Very helpful inputs! Anyone that tried the M11-D but decided to stay with M10-D?

9 hours ago, hdmesa said:

M10's shitty shutter blade metering and shitty battery life

I, like many others here, love the traditional M shutter blade metering. In addition, battery life of the screenless M10-D is very good (though not as good as M60 and M11-D), much better than other M10s.

[hdmesa]

23 minutes ago, LeicaM60 said:

Thanks for the feedback from those who made the switch from M10-D to M11-D. Very helpful inputs! Anyone that tried the M11-D but decided to stay with M10-D?

I, like many others here, love the traditional M shutter blade metering. In addition, battery life of the screenless M10-D is very good (though not as good as M60 and M11-D), much better than other M10s.

And the M10 batteries are small at least.

[egrossman]

31 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

And the M10 batteries are small at least.

They may be small, but you know what one of the largest draws of power for these batteries typically is? The screen LOL.

 

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, egrossman said:

They may be small, but you know what one of the largest draws of power for these batteries typically is? The screen LOL.

 

I meant at least they aren’t large physically, meaning you can take a spare without much effort.

[RF’sDelight]

Am 29.9.2024 um 04:42 schrieb hdmesa:

And the M10 batteries are small at least.

I will miss my Leictime battery carrier which I used with a matching strap since the M8. 😁

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[setuporg]

I am an actual D photographer with the 60.  I just got a D and it rocks.  Everything we need.  FOTOS lets you change settings easier.  Visoflex allows for close focusing lenses.  The shape is just like 60.  I skipped M10-D because of the complex wheel, fake lever etc.  Gone is the weird ISO knob, just like in the 60.

 M11-D comes 10 years after Edition 60, both anniversaries of the M system, have a similar shape and do exactly what is expected of a minimalist camera for the current decade hardware.

Fat batteries have long lives on both.  I could use stainless steel lugless design or actual black paint.  But the leather back is wonderful on both.

Here’s to the next ten years!

Edited October 9 by setuporg

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[setuporg]

FOTOS is a fantastic companion to M11-D.  This is the first M body where geotagging works continuously.  Since I want that and carry my iPhone with me everywhere already, it’s an easy choice to change settings in FOTOS and sometimes verify critical shot.  When background push comes back, like Pixii, it will be ideal because you can easily check any shot without any prep.  Or not.  As others noted, not being able to chimp at all changes your habits, even if you thought you weren’t chimping.

My main use of the M11-P LCD screen is to verify geotagging is on and the location is current.  Apparently that would be done with FOTOS, and/or you have to watch the connection status LED on the bottom and ensure it’s connected, slow blue blinking.  It remains to be seen how many lost locations will end up coming out.

[calijax]

I too have been impressed with the FOTOS app for the M11D. I never use it much with my M11 but the M11D has forced me to open it more and I've been impressed with its speed and functionality. On the whole, the M11D has left me wanting for nothing thus far and I'm still entirely enamored with the M11 line after having owned several M10 variants. Great overall experience for a casual but frequent shooter like myself.