Leica monochrome

[brickftl]

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I'm currently shooting a M11-P, very happy with it. About half my images I process as b/w, and have long toyed with the idea of also getting a monochrome, either M10M or M11M. 

Yes I'm aware that the M11M sensor is capable of creating cleaner high ISO images at night than my M11-P, but the current state of noise reduction software seems to clean up my images nicely (especially when I'm careful to dial down the amount of noise reduction).

I'm reluctant to pose this question because I wonder if confirmation bias will lead monochrome owners to favor getting either M10M or M11M, saying that such an extravagant purchase will indeed yield b/w images appreciably better than those I create with my M11-P. 

Conversely, will confirmation bias will lead non-monochrome owners to tell me to save my money especially where I don't set out to create b/w images while shooting, and instead I make the decision to create b/w or color images during RAW conversion.

I often read monochrome users attest to better "tonality" of their images, but honestly I'm not sure I discern a tonality difference between monochrome images versus images from a color cam that are converted to b/w - especially when not too high ISO. 

Also many monochrome cam images I see look (to me) to be sort of flat and under exposed, although that can look good when going for a moody effect.

curious what people think.

[jaapv]

Monochrom images that look flat and under-exposed are not processed properly. Cleaner high ISO is not the point of using a Monochrom. 

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[Al Brown]

I think it's just GAS

[brickftl]

31 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

I think it's just GAS

yes I tend to be GASsy

[pippy]

As you will already be aware there will be very different answers given in response to your question.

First-off I will point out that I don't have any experience of any Digi-M from the M10 onwards but I suspect that parallels can be made in any case with what I do own.

The second thing I will say in that much will depend on your intended end-usage and if prints will be the outcome then to what size will you be printing and on what quality of paper-stock?

Every Monochrom version of each of the 'base' model will be capable of producing images with (to simplify matters ENORMOUSLY so please! No Nit-Picking!...😸) 'better' IQ in terms of ultimate resolution and retention of tonal range. This is a fundamental benefit of there not being a Bayer Array in front of the sensor and is the whole raison d'être of the Monochrom.

OK; that's the basics covered.

At present I have an M Monochrom and an M-D Typ-262. If I take photographs of the same subject-matter at the same time (a few seconds notwithstanding) and process-out the 'Colour' file in monochrom then it is well-nigh impossible to spot any difference between the photographs from the files produced by the two cameraseven when examining resultant prints (using a magnifier) which have been produced on very high-quality baryta papers at A3 size.

On the other hand I have also compared resolution and tonality qualities of files taken on my M9-P and, when converted to monochrome, they are not as 'good' as those from the M Monochrome. Hardly surprising, of course.

I have also read similar views expressed by those who use the M246 alongside an M10 so it might well be that when files captured by any regular generation of particular model are rendered in monochrome they will be a match for files produced by the preceeding model's Monochrom.

As stated at the start, though, much will depend on what, exactly, you will be doing with the images you capture.

Philip.

Edited August 8 by pippy

[JoshuaRothman]

I'm a hobbyist with an M10-R and an M10M. I've had the M10M for about a year. I'm primarily a color photographer but really enjoy black and white and, before the M10M, I converted about a third of my color pictures. I was curious, basically, and so I traded in a Q2 to buy a relatively cheap "well-used" M10M with a scratched display, as an indulgent experiment. 

My conclusions, after a year:

• Yes, there's a difference in the files, especially at high ISO, but also at lower ISO.
• At the same time, viewers will not necessarily see the differences. And you may not be able to tell the difference yourself, after you've finished your post-processing of converted color files. With some exceptions, the differences are often more visible during editing than in the final product.
• It is just plain fun to own a monochrome camera. It's cool to set out to shoot only black and white, as though you've loaded Tri-X. You notice different things.
• It's also somehow fun to have files that just "are" black and white. They sit there in Lightroom with a certain magnetism.
• I enjoy seeing how my lenses render on the two cameras. I don't love my 50mm Summilux ASPH in color, but I enjoy it in black and white. The Steel Rim Reissue is somehow extra cool on the Monochrom; the 50 f/1.2 Noctilux is my favorite color 50, but I don't enjoy it too much on my M10M. All personal preferences, of course.
• I've had the most fun with the M10M when I undertake projects with it. E.g., a series of portraits. Or landscape images shot at 90mm. It's been a way of priming the artistic pump.
• For my style of photography—basically just everyday documentation—I think the M10M might not be the right tool. Since I'm mostly reactive in my photography—it's rare for me to set out to photograph certain things deliberately, in advance—it might be more useful to have a single M camera and convert to black and white. Two Ms complicates things. But it enlivens everyday photography, too.

I'm glad I bought the M10M, and I can't quite see myself selling it, because it's so much fun to own. But it could also go, someday soon, maybe in exchange for an SL2-S and zooms, which would could open up a different set of possibilities. Boxing it up would be painful, though. For now, I've decided to extend my one-year experiment into a second year.

At bat, with the M10M and 50 Lux ASPH:

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Edited August 8 by JoshuaRothman

[brickftl]

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48 minutes ago, JoshuaRothman said:

I'm a hobbyist with an M10-R and an M10M. I've had the M10M for about a year. I'm primarily a color photographer but really enjoy black and white and, before the M10M, I converted about a third of my color pictures. I was curious, basically, and so I traded in a Q2 to buy a relatively cheap "well-used" M10M with a scratched display, as an indulgent experiment. 

My conclusions, after a year:

• Yes, there's a difference in the files, especially at high ISO, but also at lower ISO.
• At the same time, viewers will not necessarily see the differences. And you may not be able to tell the difference yourself, after you've finished your post-processing of converted color files. With some exceptions, the differences are often more visible during editing than in the final product.
• It is just plain fun to own a monochrome camera. It's cool to set out to shoot only black and white, as though you've loaded Tri-X. You notice different things.
• It's also somehow fun to have files that just "are" black and white. They sit there in Lightroom with a certain magnetism.
• I enjoy seeing how my lenses render on the two cameras. I don't love my 50mm Summilux ASPH in color, but I enjoy it in black and white. The Steel Rim Reissue is somehow extra cool on the Monochrom; the 50 f/1.2 Noctilux is my favorite color 50, but I don't enjoy it too much on my M10M. All personal preferences, of course.
• I've had the most fun with the M10M when I undertake projects with it. E.g., a series of portraits. Or landscape images shot at 90mm. It's been a way of priming the artistic pump.
• For my style of photography—basically just everyday documentation—I think the M10M might not be the right tool. Since I'm mostly reactive in my photography—it's rare for me to set out to photograph certain things deliberately, in advance—it might be more useful to have a single M camera and convert to black and white. Two Ms complicates things. But it enlivens everyday photography, too.

I'm glad I bought the M10M, and I can't quite see myself selling it, because it's so much fun to own. But it could also go, someday soon, maybe in exchange for an SL2-S and zooms, which would could open up a different set of possibilities. Boxing it up would be painful, though. For now, I've decided to extend my one-year experiment into a second year.

At bat, with the M10M and 50 Lux ASPH:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Joshua, your response is EXACTLY what I'm looking for since you have both the 10R and 10M, and I totally get what you're saying. I may go ahead and buy a used M11M and at the same time sell my mint M10 silver so that the next cost of the M11M would be around $5100. 

Oh, and my photographic roots began shooting Tri-X on a manual Canon AE1, probably one reason that the monochrom appeals to me.

After doing much reading, I've pretty much reached your conclusions: the M11M will produce a slightly better image in terms of resolution/sharpness (and perhaps that elusive tonality thing that I'm not sure I fully understand the difference of); and that taking the M11M out for a specific project would be a fun challenge even if perhaps a GASsy indulgence. 

Love that picture with the boy holding the bat!

Edited August 8 by brickftl

[gotium]

1 hour ago, brickftl said:

Joshua, your response is EXACTLY what I'm looking for since you have both the 10R and 10M, and I totally get what you're saying. I may go ahead and buy a used M11M and at the same time sell my mint M10 silver so that the next cost of the M11M would be around $5100. 

Oh, and my photographic roots began shooting Tri-X on a manual Canon AE1, probably one reason that the monochrom appeals to me.

After doing much reading, I've pretty much reached your conclusions: the M11M will produce a slightly better image in terms of resolution/sharpness (and perhaps that elusive tonality thing that I'm not sure I fully understand the difference of); and that taking the M11M out for a specific project would be a fun challenge even if perhaps a GASsy indulgence. 

Love that picture with the boy holding the bat!

I agree with what Joshua says. But he says it better than I would have. 

[Derbyshire Man]

I've got both M11P and M11M. I'm 95% monochrome, typically 50mm summilux FLE2 on the M11P and 35mm summilux FLE or 35mm summilux pre-asph on the M11M. I sometimes put the 35mm summilux FLE2 on the M11P and run two 35mm at the same time as the wide open look is so different.

There are advantages to the monochrom (low light, detail of forest shots, etc) but that doesn't always feed through to which are my favourite monochrome images, sometimes the feel and soul on the M11P is better. About 80% of the time I add grain to both as if it was tri-x, only for medium format style B&W do I leave the monochrom un-grained.

The monochrom does need to be processed to produce a proper B&W image, it's simply a function of having such wide latitude, many people are obsessed with keeping all of the pixels as a shade of grey, for me, B&W is very often either crushed blacks or burnt out highlights, just like film.

I'm a fan of having two bodies most of the time so the question for me was two of the same or one of each and with my love of black and white I'd do the same (as long as the firmware is fixed properly!). Both cameras are things of beauty of course and that helps!

Examples below.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikehenleyphotography/

Edited August 8 by Derbyshire Man

[sometimesmaybe]

3 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

• It is just plain fun to own a monochrome camera. It's cool to set out to shoot only black and white, as though you've loaded Tri-X. You notice different things.
• It's also somehow fun to have files that just "are" black and white. They sit there in Lightroom with a certain magnetism.

just about sums up my position on monochrom, esp the 1st point

[brickftl]

2 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I've got both M11P and M11M. I'm 95% monochrome, typically 50mm summilux FLE2 on the M11P and 35mm summilux FLE or 35mm summilux pre-asph on the M11M. I sometimes put the 35mm summilux FLE2 on the M11P and run two 35mm at the same time as the wide open look is so different.

There are advantages to the monochrom (low light, detail of forest shots, etc) but that doesn't always feed through to which are my favourite monochrome images, sometimes the feel and soul on the M11P is better. About 80% of the time I add grain to both as if it was tri-x, only for medium format style B&W do I leave the monochrom un-grained.

The monochrom does need to be processed to produce a proper B&W image, it's simply a function of having such wide latitude, many people are obsessed with keeping all of the pixels as a shade of grey, for me, B&W is very often either crushed blacks or burnt out highlights, just like film.

I'm a fan of having two bodies most of the time so the question for me was two of the same or one of each and with my love of black and white I'd do the same (as long as the firmware is fixed properly!). Both cameras are things of beauty of course and that helps!

Examples below.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikehenleyphotography/

beautiful pics, I especially love this. If this was shot with a monochrom, then I'm beginning to understand the tonality claim by monochrom owners.

Do you recall what lens you used for this pic? Looks like the 35 lux pre-asph. I have the 35/1.4 lux steel rim reissue and could imagine producing an image like this shot wide open. I'm obsessed with that look.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Edited August 9 by brickftl

[PeterKelly]

I have a Q3, M11 and a M10 monochrome. I have always loved black and white images and am immediately drawn to these images when I’m looking at other photographers stuff on the web.

I have fairly recently returned to the M world after not having shot a rangefinder since my 2 year stint with a M8. I am loving it despite the quirks and limitations and it takes me back to my early days when I learned photography with a Pentax Spotmatic and a 50mm lens. Somehow shooting monochrome enhances this joy for me. It’s like my old Pentax loaded with a fresh roll of Tri-X or similar. It simply have more desire to pick up the M10 and go shooting than I can ever remember with other cameras. 

For me it less about the difference of shooting native B&W versus converted color files and more about the joy and nostalgia of returning to my photographic roots. I’m not sure this will make much sense to anyone but me.

 

On the technical side I have recently completed a personal project where I regularly had to shoot at ISO 12500 and I had a huge grin on my face when I loaded them into LR and saw just how damn good the images were. 
 

One interesting thing is that I find I am using the Visoflex on the M10 more than I thought I would because there is a bit of a disconnect in the creative side of my brain when I view the color scene through the rangefinder and then take a monochrome image.

 

BTW I totally agree with Derbyshire Man - I am reckless with blowing highlights and crushing the blacks on many images and love the results.

 

Just my $0.02 worth…..

[brickftl]

8 minutes ago, PeterKelly said:

For me it less about the difference of shooting native B&W versus converted color files and more about the joy and nostalgia of returning to my photographic roots. I’m not sure this will make much sense to anyone but me.

 

nope, that also makes much sense to me! My photographic roots (as I mentioned above) are shooting Tri-X on a manual focus AE1.

I'm close to pulling the trigger 😱

[PeterKelly]

11 minutes ago, brickftl said:

nope, that also makes much sense to me! My photographic roots (as I mentioned above) are shooting Tri-X on a manual focus AE1.

I'm close to pulling the trigger 😱

You only live once ……..:-)

[Luke_Miller]

I shoot with both the M240 and the M246 which share the same sensor.  This gives me the opportunity to shoot the same scene with both bodies and the same lens.  The results are noticeably (but not dramatically) different due to the absence of a Bayer Array in the M246. In my case I find the differences important, but that is not true for everyone.

One thing I learned when considering the purchase of a Monochrom was that many color monitors do not do a good job with B&W images. And online presentation does them no favors. To really understand what the Monochrom bodies can produce I had to find downloadable image files and view them on my image processing monitor.   I don't convert color images to B&W (my Monochroms have spoiled me).  I find that I process my Monochrom shots very differently than I do color images.

[harmen]

Have you considered the Q2M?  You can’t swap lenses, but it gives you some extras: weatherproof, lightweight., video.  Those could make it more usefully different.  I use M11, Q2M, and - only underwater - a Z7, in the digital realm at least.

Edited August 9 by harmen

[Ecar]

Since the M9M was released, I have always kept a Monochrom alongside my colour bodies. The main reason has nothing to do with extended tonal range, high-iso performance or any other (real, but somewhat marginal IRL) benefit. Arguably, converting from colour offers more processing flexibility in creating a B&W image. The real raison d'être of the Monochrom AFAIC is that picking it up is a deliberate choice and forces me to "see in B&W". This challenges creativity in a different way by focussing attention on a scene's light, contrast, tones and textures - with no "distraction" from colours. Ultimately, it is not only fun but perhaps also beneficial to my colour photography.

One could, of course, only use the EVF set to B&W on a colour body. But it kind of defeats the purpose, is not the most pleasurable experience and once the files are imported in LR or C1, you are still left with the "does it look better in colour or in B&W?" question...

[fotografr]

You can save quite a bit of money and avoid some potential frustrations by not overlooking the M10M on your way to the M11M. I've shot the M10M and M10-R combination for several years and both are flawless performers. I've also done side by side tests to see if I could get M10-R conversions to look like what the M10M puts out. I can't. The M10M images are in a league of there own. I've rarely used an M10M image straight out of the camera but the latitude of the files allows one to get images that range from creamy yet sharp to ultra high contrast. 

I shot professionally for 40 years and the first few years were b&w only, mostly Tri-X. B&W is still my first love and I'm fussy about it. I consider the M10M the best camera I've ever used. The 40MP file size is perfect for me and I never have to worry that the camera will freeze on me when I want to click the shutter. 

[topcat28]

+1 for the xxM.  I had an M246 alongside an M10.  I loved both, but "needed" an M11P.  And the only way I could have the latter was to sacrifice both of the former.

I love the M11P, and have no regrets.  (It behaves itself incredibly well...)

But I do miss the M246 - and hope one day to be able to afford / justify an M11M.

I do have an M7, and shoot the odd role of film - which I develop myself.  I used to have a darkroom.  And the M246 was the closest I've ever felt, shooting digitally, to film.

As has been mentioned - personally, I think there's an authenticity factor to it as well.  I have NO issue with other people processing their (better than my) colour shots to mono.  But if I'm showing a mono image, I like to know that that's how I shot it.

I also quite enjoyed the effects of using mono filters...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ldhrads]

I recently moved from M10-P and M10-M to M11-P only. I previously had M9-P and M-Monochrom

While I loved shooting the monochrome versions, I found myself using the Monos less and less.  

At this point, I'm comfortable with converting my M11-P images to B&W, maybe one day I'll get a standalone monochrome body again, but for me now, it's just simpler and the M11-P is a huge jump over the M10-P.