Tri-Elmar MATE v1 for M10?

[BLeventhal]

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I have recently sold all of my SL kit and decided to go with an M10 and 35mm Cron v5 (I think it's v5 Asph w/ click on square hood). Anyway, I'm new to M after a short time with an M8 in 2010 and a film CL kit in the 1990's. My M10 will be my "take anywhere" camera and kept in my wildlife/landscape bag when I'm shooting what I typically shoot. 

I have seen that the "MATE" is not a super-desirable lens, but is considered very versatile for people who travel (like me). I also have read that the v1 is even less desirable than the v2 due to the larger filter size and lack of firm detents at the 3 focal lengths. In spite of this, the $1750 price tag and 6-bit coding has caught my eye. If you've got a MATE or had a MATE and used it on an M10, M240, 262, or  Monochrom 246, please share your thoughts... I can buy it with a 6 month warranty, but a very short return period (7 days).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

bruce

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[a.noctilux]

Hello Bruce,

I use one MATE for many years now.

Not the most loved indeed, but for me it works like it should.

 

If the price is right, I'd try ( ...in your place !).

1m focus is sometimes "too far", filters E55 are very common, (also E49 for v2),

for Monochrom colored filters are a must.

...subject hiding at 28mm is something to beware of, acceptable or not, you are the only one to "master"...

IQ wise, 28mm and 35mm nothing to say, just a bit flarey at 50mm ...maybe having another 50mm (I like this field of view) is not bad idea.

I take along the light Summarit-M 2.5/50 or (if planned) for larger field a 21mm lens.

[wda]

I have MATE V2 which I bought new for travel photography with an M6. Later used on M8, M9 and MP240. I do not recognise your description of the lens. It is very versatile.  With .modern sensors  f/4 is not a limitation in use. Optically there is no difference between the two versions.  It should serve you well.

[a.noctilux]

Anyway, MATE is smarter for M use than any lens.

for fun ...

(not a bad lens Canon 20-35 though)

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[Jeff S]

From a reputable Leica dealer with warranty and return policy?  That’s the only way I buy used, unless I personally know the seller.

I’ve owned both versions, used, and ultimately sold both.  Versatile, but mechanically very complex.  I would at least have DAG look at it if I were buying. And as noted, care is needed to avoid flare at 50mm with some samples.

I would be interested, however, if Leica were to produce a more modern version, or a bi-Elmar, with less operational complexity.  
 

Jeff

[darylgo]

For those that like this lens it is well loved.  I sold my copy within a few years after buying it, the IQ is good but I could get better results with a prime in a smaller package.  My use of lenses relies on faster optics for use in low light, f4 was not fast for my use and iirc the peak performance is f5.6.  One advantage of Leica optics is you can purchase/sell on the used market without significant loss, $1750 sounds like a very good price. 

14 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I would be interested, however, if Leica were to produce a more modern version, or a bi-Elmar, with less operational complexity.

Rumored for 10 years, I would be interested also and think it would be similar to the 35 Summicron Apo, no stock for two years.   

 

[Rick in CO]

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As stated above, not the equal of latest prime lenses, but the convenience while traveling is unbeatable.  I had mine, the later 2nd version, 6-bit modified and "adjusted optically for digital" by Leica Germany. I routinely enlarge to 13x19, occasionally 16x20, and am very happy with the results.  Not the equal of the 50 Apo Summicron or the 28 ASPH II Elmar, but still very good on the M10R - actually I like my conversions to B&W more with the Tri-Elmar than the other two lenses.

The only reservation is that the lens intrudes significantly into the 28mm frame lines (I use the hood with mine - the oft-mentioned flare with the 50mm is not a problem).  I can use mine at f4 in a pinch, f5.6 is near optimal for 35 & 50mm, the 28 requires at least f5.6, f8 is better.  For a travel lens where you use smaller apertures anyway, it's no issue. I can confirm Erwin Puts' statement that it suffers no loss of quality out to f16, something that cannot be said of many lenses, which is especially handy for travel/landscape shots.

The price and return privilege sound right.  

Beograd Street 50mm at f8, Novi Sad 28mm at f5.6.  Both ISO 100.

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[lct]

3 hours ago, BLeventhal said:

I have seen that the "MATE" is not a super-desirable lens, but is considered very versatile for people who travel (like me). I also have read that the v1 is even less desirable than the v2 due to the larger filter size and lack of firm detents at the 3 focal lengths.

The MATE v1 (11890) was more desirable to me because it has a built-in hood contrary to v2. As for focal length detents, mine are firm on all the cameras i use the lens with, including M11 and M240. Main con is flare at 50mm but v2 has the same AFAIK. Another con is 1m MFD but v2 has the same as well. See v1 brochure attached below.

LeicaM_283550_11890_prod_p03-04.pdf

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[lexffm]

It is a very good lens in all areas (i have two of them). The hidden "macro variant" between 50 and 28 with about 45 cm can also be used sometimes. So if 1:4 is not your problem, buy it!

[Ecar]

V2 here. Far from being my favourite, but easily my most used lens (and I have a few...) simply because it comes along on pretty much every holiday trip. Flare at 50mm can be worked around, but is a bit of a nuisance. I'd look for a 6-bit factory-coded copy - or send it to Wetzlar for coding, which will entail proper adjustment.

[PhoToad]

I own the 2nd version, 6-bit coded. Very handy for travelling (though not so much for indoors). The flare at 50 mm can be avoided once you know about its existence. Somewhat more annoying is that the lens protrudes into the field of the viewfinder. The lens is very versatile in dusty environments (I used it in Central Asia) and at seashores, where you maybe rather would avoid changing lenses.

[TomSchmitt]

I own V1 and V2 on a M11 and M11M. It is my most used lens. It does everything but shallow DOF and low light, although on a modern sensor you can get away with F4 most of the time. With your warranty and 7 day return I think it’s safe to buy it and check it out. V1 is mechanically more ‘rough’ than V2, also my V2 is sharper than V1 but that might be anecdotal copy variation. The mechanics of V2 certainly feels smoother. The flare at 50mm has been mentioned, also the secret macro setting. Still a great lens and - at least to me - highly desirable.

[lexffm]

Pictures from today with M 11 M.

1st @35mm

2nd + 3rd with 50mm

2nd picture big crop

3rd picture little crop

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[hansvons]

On 6/27/2024 at 8:36 PM, BLeventhal said:

I have recently sold all of my SL kit and decided to go with an M10 and 35mm Cron v5

 

Great choice. The 35mm Summicron ASPH is a superb lens. It’s got lot of character but is also sharp to the corners at full aperture (almost). It’s a prime example, if not THE prime example of a great, small Leica lens. The APO is sharper but loses most of the personality, similar things can be said about the great, little Summarit of the same focal length.

Now the MATE. Basically, it’s a zoom lens. Despite Leica’s pedigree as a mythical lens maker, they cannot work magic and have to deal with the mundane laws of physics. In that case it’s dealing with the compromises a zoom requires. If they are optically in prime territory, they are large, like huge. I own a 20-100mm S-35mm Cooke cine zoom. It’s 45cm long has a front lens diameter of 18cm (!) and weights 5 kilos. If they are small like the MATE, they must compromise on performance, including speed, corner sharpness, and various aberrations. 

If you expect a lens that will be on par with your Summicron, only two stops slower, you'll be disappointed. It can't be, never will be. If you don't mind and need a lens that conveniently gets snaps done, buy it.

I do understand the desire of owning a short zoom, the classic 24-70. But that's DSLR territory, which you deliberately sold. The M system is all about quality, the shooting experience, and a comparable small footprint. To a certain degree, that goes out of the window when using larger lenses with the M; plus, the viewfinder blockage isn't helping either. 

I’d either learn how to find a photographic voice with one lens (that’s your 35mm Summicron) and/or get a DSLR with a standard zoom, like the totally underrated Lumix S5II which is in any regard the better camera when you need a zoom. Or buy another prime of a different focal length which you miss when shooting with the 35mm Summicron.

 

 

[a.noctilux]

To the OP and other persons too.

In my use, I consider MATE as special lens for special needs (not for everybody or needs).

In your place, I'd keep ( if this is your favorite lens or another small one ! ) the 35mm you have and explore the possibilities of MATE.

Maybe you will find "needs" for the MATE, maybe not.

[a.noctilux]

11 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Now the MATE. Basically, it’s a zoom lens.

Not really, technically MATE is not a zoom lens but varifocal.

Three settings (28/35/50) and not zoom lens usable at every focal lengths ( here would be 28mm to 50mm).

 

I think that (and choice of 8 elements) limits it's size when Leica planned to built it.

It's big, but not as big as real zoom lens of same 28-50mm.

[lct]

1 hour ago, hansvons said:

[...] The 35mm Summicron ASPH is a superb lens. It’s got lot of character but is also sharp to the corners at full aperture (almost). It’s a prime example, if not THE prime example of a great, small Leica lens [...] Now the MATE. [...] If you expect a lens that will be on par with your Summicron, only two stops slower, you'll be disappointed [...]

+1 about the Summicron 35/2 asph but as far as my v1 of both lenses are concerned, the MATE can compete in sharpness at the center of the frame and has also less color fringing and a bit less distortion. Vignetting being similar, only significant con of the MATE is softer corners below f/8 IMHO.

[Almizilero]

The MATE V2 has become my only travel lens on the M10. As I usually travel with friends/girlfriend who have no patience for photo stops and lens changing and whatnot, the MATE has become invaluable. I rarely use it in everyday life, but for travel, the results are more than satisfactory. Many a travel pic from the MATE grace my walls these days.

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[DadDadDaddyo]

I got my V1 MATE a month or two ago, after a long ponder and a slow, careful look for a specific prospect. Mine has been 6bit converted (as others have mentioned as well), a considerable benefit to digital M use in providing focal length info recorded in the XFIF data. 

I think I agree that the images it can produce are not as, I don't know, "imbued with inherent character" as some of my classic primes. 

And, I agree in principal with the sentiment that learning, really learning, to use a 35mm might very well make the 28 and 50mm focal lengths expendable, certainly in certain settings.

But: I've found the MATE really well suited to a certain kind of rapid documentary work, reportage, literal capture, in a dynamic setting. For carefully crafted works of conscious creation I think I'd prefer a selected prime at the selected focal length. But that's offset somewhat by the ease of rapid switching between focal lengths, giving you some of the benefits of carrying three bodies each with a different prime, without the ensuing madness. It's a very convenient lens for reliable capture of fleeting moments, in mid-range street work, for example. 

Though, again, yes, you can do that as well if you're equipped with a 35mm that's become second nature for you - but only if it has truly become second nature. 

Actually, it's natural to base one's use of the MATE around its own 35mm center. Then, the 50mm focal length starts to be a portrait focal length, kind of like using a 90 but without having to take a step back. 28mm gives you a significantly wider angle of view than 35; when it's what you need, it's great to have it to call upon immediately. 

To sum up, the MATE is working out very well, as hoped, as a lens well suited to certain use cases. For those, I've found it hugely beneficial to have the multiple focal lengths on immediate call.

So, all told, I'm very glad to have the MATE in my stable. There will probably be shots I'll capture because I had the MATE equipped, shots that I may have been missed with a single prime, even one as universally capable and flexible as the 35mm.

Edited June 30, 2024 by DadDadDaddyo
... typo (grumble)

[BLeventhal]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my original post. I am still very much on the fence. I am new to the M10 well over 15 years since I spent any considerable time with a Leica rangefinder camera. I am using the M10 as an "over the shoulder" camera when I'm out in the field and it and my 35mm Summ lens seem to be a perfect pairing. My gut is telling me to wait on the MATE until I am certain that I will use the M10 after the "newness factor" wears off... For now, I think I'll stick with what I have before I put piles of money into other lenses.

 

cheers,

bruce