Should I get Leica MP or M11-P or 35mm Summilux FLE II or 35mm APO?

[KenLW]

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Hi folks!

I have a special occasion coming up and would like to get a Leica product to celebrate the occasion. I have a $8,000 budget and would prefer to use it on a Leica product (I am also considering the Hasselblad 907x & 100c).

For some background information, I currently have a Leica M6 and Leica M10 with Leica 50mm Summicron V4, Voigtlander 35mm F2 Ultron, Voigtlander 50mm F2 APO, Light Lens Lab 35mm F2 Eight Element, and TTArtisan 35mm F1.4. I also have a Sony A7R5 and Fujifilm GFX 100s with various lens and other film cameras. I usually carry a Leica + some other camera whenever I travel. I am not a professional photography and just enjoy the process of taking photos.

I am thinking about going with one of the following options and would like to get a second opinion: 

1. Leica MP because the M6 is my favorite film camera. I don't really need a new Leica film camera and I have always brought used Leica camera and lens but this is a special occasion so I want indulge myself and buy a new Leica with shiny black paint. Also, Leica MP should last longer comparing to any digital cameras. My concern is the quality control of new Leica film cameras. I heard different stories of folks who brought MPs and had to wait for many month for issues to be fixed. Is the quality control of Leica getting better with more demand for film and the new M6 in production?

2. Leica M11-P because the Leica M10 is my favorite digital camera. My only practical issue with the M10 is I need to carry a charger whenever I travel while all of my other digital cameras have USB-C. M11-P would solve this issue and also improve the resolution of the image which is not necessary for me because I have a Fuji GFX 100s if I need the resolution. Also, although Leica M11-P is the most expensive option here, I could sell both my M10 and Sony A7RV to fund the camera which would allow me to use some of my budget for something else. My concern with the M11-P is that although it is relatively new, I might get buyer's remorse when the M12 comes out in 1-3 years. I know for Leica digital cameras, newer is not always the best, but Leica digital camera does not hold values well comparing to their film or lens (unless you got the M9 or any special edition).   

3. Leica Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH FLE II because I usually use 35mm lens and I would like to get the best 35mm F1.4 lens for the M mount. I have the TTArtisan 35mm F1.4 which is surprisingly good for the price, but it definitely does not have the Summilux quality or prestige. My concern is that I don't really need another 35mm lens because I have many 35mm lens already. I also have the Sony 35mm F1.4 GM which is technically superior but I don't use my Sony system often enough.

4. Leica APO-Summicron-M 35 f/2 I don't really need a 8k lens and this is very overpriced IMHO because Voigtlander 35mm F2 APO would get me similar results for 1/8 of the price. I would only buy this lens for collection purpose and best handling.

Edited May 6, 2024 by KenLW

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[Sergius]

I’d buy a used Leica Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH FLE. 

[KenLW]

26 minutes ago, Sergius said:

I’d buy a used Leica Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH FLE. 

I considered getting the 35mm FLE last year and even tried a few used ones. They all have some kind of imperfections. For example, the aperture ring could be shaky. To get a good copy, I would need to spend $3.5k+. I plan to use these lens for 10+ years so I would just buy the new FLE II in this case.

[KenLW]

21 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Since Hasselblad is one of the options - get the Hasselblad X2D. It is *stellar*. You will thank me later. Everything else you already have.

- You do not need a new film camera as you said.
- You already have a M10. And sell the GFX, it is depreciating rapidly.
- You have many 35mm lenses as you said.
- You really do not need another 35mm, not even APO.

You made many good points! I just brought the GFX100s for a very good price recently so I plan to keep it. For Hasselblad, I plan to get the 907x+100c because I have a 500C/M so the 100c could be my digital back and keeping the GFX100s instead of getting the X2D would allow me to play with adapting canon lens for effects such as very shallow depth of field with the EF 85mm 1.2.

With that said, I definitely fancy a X2D! It just looks so good comparing to the boring look of GFX!

[ktmrider2]

I purchased a MP at the end of February for $4600 from Hong Kong.  It has a two year Leica warranty.  I did not "need" another Leica film camera but I had not bought a new Leica in twenty years so it was time.

[TomB_tx]

I while back I pondered a new M6 (to go with the one I bought in 1985) as I use the M6 more than my M2,3,4,5 - and really like the M6. In you case I might get another M6 and not fret about stories of QC.

However, for myself I got a like new used M7, since I've never had one. Now it's my favorite... No problems with DX reader or other issues people complain about.

[KenLW]

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24 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

I purchased a MP at the end of February for $4600 from Hong Kong.  It has a two year Leica warranty.  I did not "need" another Leica film camera but I had not bought a new Leica in twenty years so it was time.

$4600 is a very good deal and 20 years is long enough for a new Leica, haha! I hope you enjoy your MP!

[Sergius]

46 minutes ago, KenLW said:

I considered getting the 35mm FLE last year and even tried a few used ones. They all have some kind of imperfections. For example, the aperture ring could be shaky. To get a good copy, I would need to spend $3.5k+. I plan to use these lens for 10+ years so I would just buy the new FLE II in this case.

For me a 35 fle is best choice for you.3500 € is a good price. You can use other money for photography trip. Or some good workshops with a Magnum or same quality photographers. An old working m6 is better than a new mp. The m10 is better than a possible frozen m11. 35 apo is a great lens but too expensive in my opinion. 
Another option, in my opinion, is a good 50 noctilux 1.0. A very milestone. 

[KenLW]

16 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

I while back I pondered a new M6 (to go with the one I bought in 1985) as I use the M6 more than my M2,3,4,5 - and really like the M6. In you case I might get another M6 and not fret about stories of QC.

However, for myself I got a like new used M7, since I've never had one. Now it's my favorite... No problems with DX reader or other issues people complain about.

I would prefer to get black paint Leica so I want a MP instead of M6. The M7 sounds pretty nice if you can find a good copy!

[KenLW]

2 minutes ago, Sergius said:

For me a 35 fle is best choice for you.3500 € is a good price. You can use other money for photography trip. Or some good workshops with a Magnum or same quality photographers. An old working m6 is better than a new mp. The m10 is better than a possible frozen m11. 35 apo is a great lens but too expensive in my opinion. 
Another option, in my opinion, is a good 50 noctilux 1.0. A very milestone. 

That’s true! I don’t need to spend all of my budget! And yes, I’m also slightly worried about the software issues related to the M11.

50mm Noctilux is a very good suggestion! It’s very unique and premium!

[dpitt]

You have many lenses, and quite a few 35mm options already, but if you see in '35mm' you can never have too many 🙂
I see the world in 50mm (actually more like 40mm), and I do have more 50mm options than I need (most of them Leica). There is always room for one more... And as you say, lenses keep their value well. If you buy used at the right price your money is safe in any Leica 35mm M lens. It will keep up with inflation at least.
I would propose to not "break' the bank, even if you have the budget. And why buy new? If it works now as it should there is no reason it will not work 20 years from now. My oldest 50mm is a Leica Elmar from 1930, and after a CLA it is performing as good as the day it left the factory.

Why not have a look at Summicron 35mm ASPH? Or a Summicron 35 F1.4 ASPH? Yes they are not perfect, but close, and you could use them without fear, which is important for me. They have proven to be very reliable AFAIK. Even the FLE is relatively low risk.

I do not agree with your second point about digital Leica not keeping its value well. Yes, they go down when new, but for Leica M that goes at a very slow pace. Other series like SL/TL and Q go at a faster pace. If I look back, the M8 / M9 / M240 series all bottomed out around 7-8 years after intro, and then started going up in price after 10 years or so. With the M9, there was a known issue with the sensor corrosion that makes good samples more rare, and that makes it exceptionally good value if you managed to get a free sensor replacement by Leica. But the M8 and even M240 are doing well. The M10 is not bottomed out yet but follows the same path. If it still does what you want, I would keep it for a while. It is slowly bottoming out IMO, so value loss over the coming years will be minimal, certainly compared to anything you can buy new from Leica and even used from Hasselblad or Fujifilm.

So my advice would be to maybe buy a used M11 + Summicron 35 ASPH. If you would find a used set that might fit your budget. Keep the M10 anyway until you are sure which one you like best. Taking 2 Leica bodies can be fun. One with 50mm and the other with 35mm or similar.

OTOH, I love my Leica SL. It is the ideal solution for my Leica R lens collection and I love to use it when the M is not ideal. In your case, a Summicron 35 ASPH M + Leica SL2(-S) maybe? Not sure what glass you have for the Sony and what you use it for, but the SL series with a simple adapter could be great with your M lenses. And you could get a nice AF prime (35mm?) or a standard AF zoom for it. The output from a SL2-S would rival the M10 and M11. It will depreciate more rapidly than the M series, but in this scenario, that's advantageous. The SL2-S is becoming more affordable now.

Maybe this SL2 path and keeping the M10 would bring you more than an M11. It would bring a more modern sensor and things the M will never do, and you can wait and see what the M12 will be like in a few years before replacing the M10.

Just my 2 cents...

Edited May 6, 2024 by dpitt

[hansvons]

That sounds like GAS. It’s a disorder that cries for cure. GAS not only parts you with large sums that could be invested elsewhere much better but also kills creativity, its worst symptom. The more you buy, the less you shoot for your inner artist. The end stadium is an overburding shelf and a vast collection of test shots. Alas, it can be remedied but never entirely cured. 
 

What to do?

1. Clean your shelf. Sell everything you didn't use in the last 12 months. Everything. The only exception is collectables that cannot be bought back or have a deeper meaning like your father’s first camera. Don't argue with value. Only items that you use have value for you. Sell or donate the rest and let others use it.

2. Figure out what kind of photography you are truly pursuing in your life and have your gear around that focus. Are you a birder? Do you predominantly take travel snaps or do you focus on documenting your family? Maybe you interest is architecture? Portraits? Being prepared for "everything" is an excuse for buying everything and doing nothing with focus. 

When I was shooting films for a living, I owned a prime set and a zoom, as that made economic sense when thinking in a decade of usage, everything else was rented. Now that I shoot stills, I sold everything and own three different 35mm lenses plus a fifty, as this are the focal lengths that work best for storytelling, ask any experienced film director. 

3. If you goal is not getting better in photography, don't do 1. and 2. and follow your impulses to fill the hollow spot with gear. It will make you happy for a while, which is ok because life is about pursuing happiness. 

That said, the best overall 35mm lens Leica has built regarding price and sharpness while maintaining character is the Summicron ASPH. The MP is an excellent film M but I’d get the '22 M6 because it's more practical. Perhaps focusing on film would be a focus for you? Maybe you’d lose all digital bodies except the M10? That’s what I’d do.

 

[jgeenen]

As you wrote: you want to celebrate something - so do yourself a favour and get something that has value and keeps value. On your bucket list the most eternal item seems to be the Apo-Summicron 35mm. Yes, you do have lots of 35mm lenses, and yes, the Voigtländer APO is cheaper and optically comparable - but would it have the same value  (and feel) in your hands? 

 

[hansvons]

12 hours ago, KenLW said:

That’s true! I don’t need to spend all of my budget! And yes, I’m also slightly worried about the software issues related to the M11.

50mm Noctilux is a very good suggestion! It’s very unique and premium!

Speaking of shelling out money. Do you own a printer? I recently bought a Canon 44" fine art printer, the latest model, which I believe will serve me well for the next decade. This beast is as giant as a piano. It can produce insanely large images in breathtaking quality if you know how to do it. Printing has a learning curve that will take time and cause frustration in the beginning. But when you get the hang of it, it will be more rewarding than anything else in the world of photography devices. And it costs less than the Noctilux. 

 

All I need for my photography:

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Edited May 7, 2024 by hansvons

[Smudgerer]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

Speaking of shelling out money. Do you own a printer? I recently bought a Canon 44" fine art printer, the latest model, which I believe will serve me well for the next decade. This beast is as giant as a piano. It can produce insanely large images in breathtaking quality if you know how to do it. Printing has a learning curve that will take time and cause frustration in the beginning. But when you get the hang of it, it will be more rewarding than anything else in the world of photography devices. And it costs less than the Noctilux. 

 

All I need for my photography:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Yep.......Printing is like owning a boat, sooner or later no matter the size of canoe you started out with you are going to want a bigger one, then a bigger one......yet another hole in which you throw money, but not to make prints doesn't complete the photography circle..............Congratulations on the printer, I stepped up to a 61cm Epson SC-P6000 from my still existing / working SC-P3800 and P800 printers last year with no regrets. Holding a print of one's work beats anything you can get by displaying them on a computer.

[Smudgerer]

4 hours ago, hansvons said:

That sounds like GAS. It’s a disorder that cries for cure. GAS not only parts you with large sums that could be invested elsewhere much better but also kills creativity, its worst symptom. The more you buy, the less you shoot for your inner artist. The end stadium is an overburding shelf and a vast collection of test shots. Alas, it can be remedied but never entirely cured. 
 

What to do?

1. Clean your shelf. Sell everything you didn't use in the last 12 months. Everything. The only exception is collectables that cannot be bought back or have a deeper meaning like your father’s first camera. Don't argue with value. Only items that you use have value for you. Sell or donate the rest and let others use it.

2. Figure out what kind of photography you are truly pursuing in your life and have your gear around that focus. Are you a birder? Do you predominantly take travel snaps or do you focus on documenting your family? Maybe you interest is architecture? Portraits? Being prepared for "everything" is an excuse for buying everything and doing nothing with focus. 

When I was shooting films for a living, I owned a prime set and a zoom, as that made economic sense when thinking in a decade of usage, everything else was rented. Now that I shoot stills, I sold everything and own three different 35mm lenses plus a fifty, as this are the focal lengths that work best for storytelling, ask any experienced film director. 

3. If you goal is not getting better in photography, don't do 1. and 2. and follow your impulses to fill the hollow spot with gear. It will make you happy for a while, which is ok because life is about pursuing happiness. 

That said, the best overall 35mm lens Leica has built regarding price and sharpness while maintaining character is the Summicron ASPH. The MP is an excellent film M but I’d get the '22 M6 because it's more practical. Perhaps focusing on film would be a focus for you? Maybe you’d lose all digital bodies except the M10? That’s what I’d do.

 

A perfect "why don't you do this" guide............I'd just add one thing, search for and take one or some Photographic workshops, you could be surprised at the benefits if you choose well, even a negative experience can be positive if you understand why it didn't work for you. I have been making my living behind one camera or another since the mid 1960's, fashion, journals, editorial work then moving countries I spent decades in cinema / documentary TV series film-making mostly with film then later with digital, ( disliked digital work-flow! ), but a few years ago I knew I had to re-set creatively and try to go to work for my own aspirations again rather than a client's demands........So after some research I found a workshop at Les Rencontres de la Photographie d'Arles that I thought would help nudge me out of my "commercial rut" and since then I've taken the same workshop with the same "mentor" every year and yes it helped me re-set and recover the eye I was missing...............That, in my opinion, and printing your own work is the best way to round out and perhaps grow your photography, you'll still spend money of course, but more productively than accumulating "stuff".

[KenLW]

21 hours ago, dpitt said:

You have many lenses, and quite a few 35mm options already, but if you see in '35mm' you can never have too many 🙂
I see the world in 50mm (actually more like 40mm), and I do have more 50mm options than I need (most of them Leica). There is always room for one more... And as you say, lenses keep their value well. If you buy used at the right price your money is safe in any Leica 35mm M lens. It will keep up with inflation at least.
I would propose to not "break' the bank, even if you have the budget. And why buy new? If it works now as it should there is no reason it will not work 20 years from now. My oldest 50mm is a Leica Elmar from 1930, and after a CLA it is performing as good as the day it left the factory.

Why not have a look at Summicron 35mm ASPH? Or a Summicron 35 F1.4 ASPH? Yes they are not perfect, but close, and you could use them without fear, which is important for me. They have proven to be very reliable AFAIK. Even the FLE is relatively low risk.

I do not agree with your second point about digital Leica not keeping its value well. Yes, they go down when new, but for Leica M that goes at a very slow pace. Other series like SL/TL and Q go at a faster pace. If I look back, the M8 / M9 / M240 series all bottomed out around 7-8 years after intro, and then started going up in price after 10 years or so. With the M9, there was a known issue with the sensor corrosion that makes good samples more rare, and that makes it exceptionally good value if you managed to get a free sensor replacement by Leica. But the M8 and even M240 are doing well. The M10 is not bottomed out yet but follows the same path. If it still does what you want, I would keep it for a while. It is slowly bottoming out IMO, so value loss over the coming years will be minimal, certainly compared to anything you can buy new from Leica and even used from Hasselblad or Fujifilm.

So my advice would be to maybe buy a used M11 + Summicron 35 ASPH. If you would find a used set that might fit your budget. Keep the M10 anyway until you are sure which one you like best. Taking 2 Leica bodies can be fun. One with 50mm and the other with 35mm or similar.

OTOH, I love my Leica SL. It is the ideal solution for my Leica R lens collection and I love to use it when the M is not ideal. In your case, a Summicron 35 ASPH M + Leica SL2(-S) maybe? Not sure what glass you have for the Sony and what you use it for, but the SL series with a simple adapter could be great with your M lenses. And you could get a nice AF prime (35mm?) or a standard AF zoom for it. The output from a SL2-S would rival the M10 and M11. It will depreciate more rapidly than the M series, but in this scenario, that's advantageous. The SL2-S is becoming more affordable now.

Maybe this SL2 path and keeping the M10 would bring you more than an M11. It would bring a more modern sensor and things the M will never do, and you can wait and see what the M12 will be like in a few years before replacing the M10.

Just my 2 cents...

I considered getting a Summicron 35mm ASPH last year but ended up going with light lens lab 8 element. It is not a Leica but it was very close to the look of older pre-ASPH Summicron 35mm. I like the look of light lens lab a lot which completely killed my desire for a modern Summicron 35mm. If I come across any older pre-ASPH in good condition, I would get it instead.

Thanks for suggesting the SL2 / SL2-S. I know SL2 has much better design and build but I feel like SL2 would be the Sony alternative in my system and Sony has better AF and offers the best quality lens at a reasonable price so I went with Sony instead of SL2. I usually use this type of camera for fast moving subjects so AF is important. I can even adapt M lens on Sony with both manual and auto focus using Techart PRO. Sony has pretty bad color IMO though. SL2 definitely wins there.

[KenLW]

9 hours ago, hansvons said:

That sounds like GAS. It’s a disorder that cries for cure. GAS not only parts you with large sums that could be invested elsewhere much better but also kills creativity, its worst symptom. The more you buy, the less you shoot for your inner artist. The end stadium is an overburding shelf and a vast collection of test shots. Alas, it can be remedied but never entirely cured. 
 

What to do?

1. Clean your shelf. Sell everything you didn't use in the last 12 months. Everything. The only exception is collectables that cannot be bought back or have a deeper meaning like your father’s first camera. Don't argue with value. Only items that you use have value for you. Sell or donate the rest and let others use it.

2. Figure out what kind of photography you are truly pursuing in your life and have your gear around that focus. Are you a birder? Do you predominantly take travel snaps or do you focus on documenting your family? Maybe you interest is architecture? Portraits? Being prepared for "everything" is an excuse for buying everything and doing nothing with focus. 

When I was shooting films for a living, I owned a prime set and a zoom, as that made economic sense when thinking in a decade of usage, everything else was rented. Now that I shoot stills, I sold everything and own three different 35mm lenses plus a fifty, as this are the focal lengths that work best for storytelling, ask any experienced film director. 

3. If you goal is not getting better in photography, don't do 1. and 2. and follow your impulses to fill the hollow spot with gear. It will make you happy for a while, which is ok because life is about pursuing happiness. 

That said, the best overall 35mm lens Leica has built regarding price and sharpness while maintaining character is the Summicron ASPH. The MP is an excellent film M but I’d get the '22 M6 because it's more practical. Perhaps focusing on film would be a focus for you? Maybe you’d lose all digital bodies except the M10? That’s what I’d do.

 

Haha! Sounds like GAS. Thanks for the great suggestions. 

1. Currently I don't own any gears I have not used in the last 12 months but I will keep this in mind going forward. 12 months is definitely a good window to determine what's important to me.

2. I like doing travel and street photography so I likes to buy gears and test them before I travel. But I agree, you don't need the best gear for each travel locations. Having a good good prime set and a zoom is more than sufficient.

3. I do like buying gears to "improve" my photography. In all seriousness, we don't need good gears to be the best photographer. 

For your Summicron ASPH suggestion, light lens lab 8 element is really a better lens IMO which has the pre-ASPH look.

For the 2022 M6, I believe the internals are identical to MP. There are some minor differences such as the rewind knob. MP is easier to scratch. 

I have been focusing on film for a while. Film may make GAS worse though with all the options out there. I will try to focus on the actual film photography process instead of gears.

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[KenLW]

9 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Tip #2: Spend the money for the bucket list trip of a lifetime. Take your existing gear.

Just need more vacation days. Haha!

[KenLW]

9 hours ago, hansvons said:

Speaking of shelling out money. Do you own a printer? I recently bought a Canon 44" fine art printer, the latest model, which I believe will serve me well for the next decade. This beast is as giant as a piano. It can produce insanely large images in breathtaking quality if you know how to do it. Printing has a learning curve that will take time and cause frustration in the beginning. But when you get the hang of it, it will be more rewarding than anything else in the world of photography devices. And it costs less than the Noctilux. 

 

All I need for my photography:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Hahaha! You forgot the most important part: you will need to buy a big house to keep the printer. 

5 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

A perfect "why don't you do this" guide............I'd just add one thing, search for and take one or some Photographic workshops, you could be surprised at the benefits if you choose well, even a negative experience can be positive if you understand why it didn't work for you. I have been making my living behind one camera or another since the mid 1960's, fashion, journals, editorial work then moving countries I spent decades in cinema / documentary TV series film-making mostly with film then later with digital, ( disliked digital work-flow! ), but a few years ago I knew I had to re-set creatively and try to go to work for my own aspirations again rather than a client's demands........So after some research I found a workshop at Les Rencontres de la Photographie d'Arles that I thought would help nudge me out of my "commercial rut" and since then I've taken the same workshop with the same "mentor" every year and yes it helped me re-set and recover the eye I was missing...............That, in my opinion, and printing your own work is the best way to round out and perhaps grow your photography, you'll still spend money of course, but more productively than accumulating "stuff".

Thanks for the suggestions on the workshop! I also found going to free (or donation based) meet-up group very helpful in the past! I will look out for both!

9 hours ago, jgeenen said:

As you wrote: you want to celebrate something - so do yourself a favour and get something that has value and keeps value. On your bucket list the most eternal item seems to be the Apo-Summicron 35mm. Yes, you do have lots of 35mm lenses, and yes, the Voigtländer APO is cheaper and optically comparable - but would it have the same value  (and feel) in your hands? 

 

Yes, this is the reason why I had the APO on the list.