Jump to content

SL3 as blueprint for S4? Thoughts


GMB

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Reputable dealers like Leica Miami will only sell current S lenses that have last motor replacement, store warranty, and often Leica warranty if recently serviced to meet their used sales standards.  
 

Jeff

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Reputable dealers like Leica Miami will only sell current S lenses that have last motor replacement, store warranty, and often Leica warranty if recently serviced to meet their used sales standards.  
 

Jeff

Not the point, it is the use of one's existing lenses. And even a lens with a new motor can fail after the warranty period.

My original thought is that someone who is willing to spend what the rumored S4 will cost new will also want new lenses specifically designed for that camera. Down the line, who knows? The cameras might be going for a fraction of their initial retail price, like their predecessors. And the lenses, too, including earlier S lenses.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Once the motors have been fixed, they last. I think people who can afford an S might not necessarily want to spend for all the new lenses at once. Particularly for a lens like the 120 which is still spectacular and if I recall was pushing 8000 dollars new. A new version would likely be similar…add a standard and a normal and the 10-15k body you could maybe justify turns into 30k+ pretty quickly. Obviously for the true cost no object crowd there will be some that buy everying immediately, but I still think some might stretch for the S4 and add lenses over time, using their existing S and L lenses as a supplement. This exact thought occurred to Leica too, which is why they made fully functial adapters for Contax, Hasselblad and Mamiya lenses, as well as pentax etc. The wanted pros to be able to use their existing lens to lower the cost of entry. I don’t know about others, but I did exactly that with my first S body. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

And even a lens with a new motor can fail after the warranty period.

 

Don’t know of a single case, or any forum reports, of any failure after Leica repair the using final, permanent part solution, not using earlier parts. Do you?

Jeff

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, who know how ling it will take until new lenses would be available.

I would be interested in a new more compact 45 or 55 mm lens. (Evenhthough I have a 55 Contax for this) but I would probably happyly continue to use my 120 or 180 or 100 or 24.

I agree though , step by step people would probably also buy new lenses. The S-lenses dont have to hide, even today. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

19 hours ago, geetee1972 said:

It'll cost £16,000/$18,000 and no one will buy it except those lucky enough to get a 50% discount or daft enough to spend that much money on a MF camera that will be exactly no different to one costs half that much and has a more aesthetically regarded aspect ratio. Leica cannot possibly afford to bring a MF camera to market that costs less than their M range; it would massively canablise sales of the M11 and it would completely kill the SL3. There is only one price point they could off an S4 at and unfortunately there is just no market demand there anymore without there being something radically different about it to justify the price point. Hasselblad don't even make their H fit range anymore and I'm not sure how many pro togs are buying Phase One these days. Maybe, just maybe the very top earning product and fashion photographers are buying them but they can't be selling anything like the volume they were ten years ago.

That said, Leica don't care about market share or price competitiveness because they've always relied on their brand to command the price premium. They will only bring to market products they can command a huge premium/profit margin on so either it will be priced at £16k or they won't bring it to market at all.

Circa 10k is my guess, the X2D is lower than an m11 at retail which surely has to be a factor for Leica deciding on it's pricing for the S4. If it comes in at 16k then it's a dead rubber from the beginning unless they give us something very special, a megapixel count that is unparalleled for instance.

Regarding the M, I do not think it will cannibalise M sales even if the body comes in at a similar price as it is a totally different shooting experience, those who choose to shoot M will go down that road irrespective of their being a better image quality option at a similar cost. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, costa43 said:

 

Circa 10k is my guess, the X2D is lower than an m11 at retail which surely has to be a factor for Leica deciding on it's pricing for the S4. If it comes in at 16k then it's a dead rubber from the beginning unless they give us something very special, a megapixel count that is unparalleled for instance.

Regarding the M, I do not think it will cannibalise M sales even if the body comes in at a similar price as it is a totally different shooting experience, those who choose to shoot M will go down that road irrespective of their being a better image quality option at a similar cost. 

 

I can understand your thinking and admire your optimism but I  guess the real question to ask ourselves is this. If the current S3 still retails for £16k/$18k, what makes us think that Leica is going to sell what would need to be positioned as an 'upgraded model' for less than it currently sells it? This is not a company known for cutting prices, discounting or competing on price.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, geetee1972 said:

I can understand your thinking and admire your optimism but I  guess the real question to ask ourselves is this. If the current S3 still retails for £16k/$18k, what makes us think that Leica is going to sell what would need to be positioned as an 'upgraded model' for less than it currently sells it? This is not a company known for cutting prices, discounting or competing on price.

 

Every subsequent S model was released at a lower price than the previous model. The S2 was around 23k and the S2P even more. The S006 was around 19 or 20 I believe, and the S007 and S3 under that. That is also with ten years of inflation. So the “real” cost of the S bodies decreased substantially over the system life. The SL bodies have also been stable. Meanwhile, the M prices have gone from about 6000 to nearly 10k. It is clear that Leica priced too highly to get the market they wanted, especially after the introduction of the D800 and then mirrorless cameras. I am sure they know they are in a totally different world than they were in with the S when it launched. Then MF was primarily super expensive Hasselblad and Phase backs and a more “mid end” Pentax that Leica felt they could easily price more than given how much better and advanced the S system was. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, geetee1972 said:

I can understand your thinking and admire your optimism but I  guess the real question to ask ourselves is this. If the current S3 still retails for £16k/$18k, what makes us think that Leica is going to sell what would need to be positioned as an 'upgraded model' for less than it currently sells it? This is not a company known for cutting prices, discounting or competing on price.

 

Here’s hoping for a lower price of an S4, but maybe because it can leverage off a large amount of the r&d spend and production architecture of the cheaper SL2, SL3 …? And because this time, unlike the DSLR S3 (which is pretty unique as a system format with its mirror etc), a S4 EVF would be directly feature and price comparable to the GFX and X2D? I think back to the SL2, and just how many price promotions there have been on SL bodies, SL lenses, etc. In some ways, I think the M system could remain unique as the lightweight and obviously rangefinder / mechanical system. With an S4, does the SL body become slightly superfluous if a S EVF body has the dual optionality of medium format and also full frame SL lenses on one body? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, geetee1972 said:

I can understand your thinking and admire your optimism but I  guess the real question to ask ourselves is this. If the current S3 still retails for £16k/$18k, what makes us think that Leica is going to sell what would need to be positioned as an 'upgraded model' for less than it currently sells it? This is not a company known for cutting prices, discounting or competing on price.

 

It’s just a hunch, I think they will want to be within striking distance of Hasselblad and Fuji. Leica’s brand with younger people is growing, a well positioned, well thought out design could see the well-heeled “lifestyle’ user base interested too. At £10k/$12k there is enough of a gap between the SL line and the S line.

if they do not increase their new user base then it won’t get off the ground, there are no guarantees that current S users will flock to a mirrorless option immediately, I think it needs to come in lower than previous models. The S3 was not around for that long being Leica discontinued the line which tells us something. Medium format is in a different space nowadays and it would be madness in my opinion to go in close to $20k body only.

Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, costa43 said:

The S3 was not around for that long being Leica discontinued the line which tells us something. Medium format is in a different space nowadays and it would be madness in my opinion to go in close to $20k body only.

Someone mentioned that Leica only built a few hundred S3 bodies, so it was priced accordingly. I'm sure they expect to sell a lot more S4 bodies.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 5/22/2024 at 3:12 PM, geetee1972 said:

 

If the current S3 still retails for £16k/$18k, what makes us think that Leica is going to sell what would need to be positioned as an 'upgraded model' for less than it currently sells it?

 

Perhaps because the current S3 does not sell for that price. Even perfect used bodies offered for around 10k€ don't seem to sell.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...