Summicron 35/2 ASPH II - wide open performance

[jhonzatkl]

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Hi all!

I recently bought a second-hand Summicron 35/2 APSH II, which I use on the M11-P. The glass is in great condition (production 2018), everything works smoothly and without problems, but I was surprised by the quality of the output at full aperture. 
The output at f2 is not as sharp as I expected, only after stopping down to f2.8 the sharpness starts to be at the level I would expect from glass with this reputation.
Practically in all reviews the Summicron is presented as a perfectly sharp glass. Does this still apply to today's  standards with our high-resolution cameras?
I tried to compare the lens with another second-hand piece in a local camera shop and I didn't notice any dramatic differences. However, it may not be conclusive of course. 
What are your experiences with sharpness at full aperture, please?
Thanks in advance for your opinions and experiences!

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[overexposed]

can we see a 100% crop sample picture?

[overexposed]

in other "words"

 

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[jhonzatkl]

Sure. Don't know exactly, what is the best way to provide it, but i will try my best. Whole image a 100% crops from the focus point (focusing via LV).
Left to right/top to bottom, f2, f2.8, f4, f5.6. Focusing distance cca 1.1m.

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Edited March 21, 2024 by jhonzatkl

[lct]

1 hour ago, jhonzatkl said:

[...] focusing via LV [...]

I would try the same with focus magnification at working apertures if you did not do it already.

[jhonzatkl]

Focusing was already done in Live View with most possible magnification. 

[Luke_Miller]

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I have the Summicron 35/2 APSH I.  On Sean Reid's ReidReviews site (subscription) he has done several tests of this lens and reports that, according to contacts at Leica, the ASPH 11 lens is identical optically.  In his tests the lens is not exceptionally sharp wide open and also suffers from focus shift as it is stopped down. I was disappointed in reading his report but continue to use my copy and am satisfied with the images I get with it. 

[jhonzatkl]

Thank you for your experience! I'm pretty disappointed too with performance wide open, but i have to admit, that using this lens on camera is pure joy and otherwise i like the images.

[lct]

2 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

the ASPH 11 lens is identical optically

Then this v2 is softer than my v1 at f/2. I would not keep it as is personally.

[jhonzatkl]

But what can you do with copy like this? Sell it to somebody is not the right solution, tbh. Do you think, CLA can solve this problem?

[jhonzatkl]

I have put some DNG samples in this archive. Feel free to check it in full resolution. To me, this lens fully open si better on longer distance than on shorter.
But im not sure, if this is a normal behaviour or not?

[lct]

11 minutes ago, jhonzatkl said:

But what can you do with copy like this? Sell it to somebody is not the right solution, tbh. Do you think, CLA can solve this problem?

If it is under warranty i would return it. If not, a CLA should fix the issue if you know a good repair shop.

Edited March 21, 2024 by lct

[lct]

 

15 minutes ago, jhonzatkl said:

I have put some DNG samples in this archive. Feel free to check it in full resolution. To me, this lens fully open si better on longer distance than on shorter.
But im not sure, if this is a normal behaviour or not?

Depends on where you focused precisely. Just at f/2 to begin with.

[sebben]

It looks sharper than other V1 ASPH

lenses that I have had. It’s just not that good wide open. 

[Luke_Miller]

I've downloaded the DNGs and opened them in Lightroom with default settings.  To my eye the sharpness in the f2.0 bookcase shot is consistent with I see at f2.0 in the ReidReview tests.  I do not think you have a defective lens.  I've taken over 2350 images with my copy and I note that the copy Sean Reid used in a half dozen tests using different Leica bodies is his personal lens. It is a good lens.  If maximum sharpness at f2.0 is important the 35 APO Summicron-M is a much better choice as shown in Sean's head-to-head tests.  That said I find the sharpness in the f2.0 image to be acceptable.  Particularly since once resized from 60 mpx to anything that would be printed or shown on the web it would be very crisp.  I took the f2.0 bookcase DNG and applied the Lightroom Raw Detail tool and that made it a bit sharper.  I also applied Topaz Sharpen AI and that made it as sharp as one could want.  At smaller apertures I think the performance is fine.

I find mine good enough in my shooting. Good enough that I see no need to pay the additional cost of something better.

[jhonzatkl]

Thank you all for your time and helpfullness. The most important result for me is that lens is probably ok and i have no defective copy.
I can definitely live with this kind of "sharpness". And as @Luke_Miller said, after resizing or print from 60Mpix, the sharpness is more than enough for almost anything.
I have tried many different 35mm lenses and i have found the Summicron as the most complete package of all important atributes.
For me, small disadvantage in wide open sharpness, is pretty good trade off.

[UliWer]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb jhonzatkl:

Focusing was already done in Live View with most possible magnification. 

Did you change the focus for each f-stop? (Camera placed on a tripod and avoing all sorts of shake by using a cable release).

First of all the Live View is not always reliable with wide angle lenses of high contrast. Even if you use focus peaking it will show you too much as being "sharp" which in reality is slightly out of focus. With wide-angles the rangefinder is unsurpassed for exactness - as long as it is calibrated exactly. 

If you did not change the focus for each f-stop you will have to accept a slight amount of focus shift with this lens. Focus shift means that the focus at f/2 will not be the same as with f/2.8. The larger depth of focus for smaller f-stops will compensate for this focus shift: stepped down photos will look sharper. 

So I'd recommend to try again using the rangefinder with f/2 and look what happens if you step down. 

[lct]

15 minutes ago, UliWer said:

If you did not change the focus for each f-stop you will have to accept a slight amount of focus shift with this lens. [...]

My Summicron 35/2 asph v1 copy has no significant focus shift and to avoid any consequence of field curvature in LV mode, i just focus at working aperture like with other lenses on the M11. I have no experience with the Summicron 35/2 asph v2 hough. If v1 and v2 have the same optical performance, as some of us are suggesting here, i would not accept any compromise at full aperture but it's just me...

 

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[jhonzatkl]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

Did you change the focus for each f-stop? (Camera placed on a tripod and avoing all sorts of shake by using a cable release).

First of all the Live View is not always reliable with wide angle lenses of high contrast. Even if you use focus peaking it will show you too much as being "sharp" which in reality is slightly out of focus. With wide-angles the rangefinder is unsurpassed for exactness - as long as it is calibrated exactly. 

If you did not change the focus for each f-stop you will have to accept a slight amount of focus shift with this lens. Focus shift means that the focus at f/2 will not be the same as with f/2.8. The larger depth of focus for smaller f-stops will compensate for this focus shift: stepped down photos will look sharper. 

So I'd recommend to try again using the rangefinder with f/2 and look what happens if you step down. 

Thank you for you comment. I'l definitely try it again.

[lct]

1 minute ago, Al Brown said:

There definitely is focus shift with Summicron 35 ASPH

Not on mine. Never has been since i got it in 2010. I would not say the same about the Summicron 35/2 v4 though. Both my Canadian and German copies suffer a bit from that at around f/4.