New to Leica M lens system

[KiloLimaAlpha]

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Hello,

Can you guys help a noob out. 

I just acquired a used M11 and like to get a 28mm and a 50mm to accompany it, I like at least one of the lens to be a Leica for a full Leica experience.  I think I'm mostly a 28mm shooter, I had 35mm before and always finding it a bit too narrow.  I anticipate 60/40 indoor/outdoor usage, with the 50mm for full body to half body portraits.  All these are for personal uses.

I'm deciding between 2 options here:

1. Leica 28mm Elmarit f/2.8 and Voigtlander 50mm APO f/2
Pros:
Cheapest, total $3800
Light weight with 28mm as main lens, maximize the full "Leica" experience, whatever that is :).  I do like Leica rendering.
Get to experience APO sharpness

Cons:
Widest aperture is f/2
28mm f2.8 maybe a bit limiting for indoor use
Elmarit f/2.8 maybe replaced sooner than later? would be nice to have the close focus version for more dramatic composure

2. Voigtlander 28mm Ultron f/2 and Leica 50mm Summilux f/1.4, the new close focus version
Pros:
Widest with f/2 and f/1.4 apertures, better for indoor usage
Newer Summilux design with close focus
Upgrading to newer close focus Elmarit f/2.8 whenever that'll come from Voigtlander loss won't as bad

Cons:
Expensive, $5400
Main lens (28mm) is not a Leica
Slightly larger package for the main 28mm lens

 

I'm leaning towards option #1.  Would love to hear your thoughts.  I've always dream of owning a Leica M, so close!

Thanks!

 

Edited February 21, 2024 by KiloLimaAlpha

[LocalHero1953]

The only one of this bunch I have owned is the Elmarit-M 28 asph. There is little to beat it in the size/quality stakes IMO. I have used it indoors without problems - just upped the ISO, but of course if you don't want to do that, if you want close focus, if you want shallower depth of field.........you must then decide what trade-offs you're prepared to make.

[Carlos cruz]

With m11 iso capability I wouldn’t have any fears of lenses being too slow. The only aspect I would consider is DOF and close focus. 

[Chris W]

A lot of people say the Voigtlander 50mm APO is outstanding, so I would personally definitely get that.

Look at Leica official dealers or known 3rd part Leica specialists for a used 28mm?

[chris7273]

other option for a full leica experience (with the benefit of "small" lenses) : Elmarit 28mm + summicron 50mm.... 

On a budget point of view : these two lenses are easy to find on the second hand market.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2024 by chris7273

[RayD28]

Not sure where you are located or if you want used or new.  In US I believe you can get a used 28mm 2.8 ASPH for about $1,800 and a used 50mm Lux ASPH for $2,800, for a total of $4,600.  Not discounting the quality of the Voigtlanders, just pointing out another option.  

[JoshuaR]

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I would buy used, and get the 28 Elmarit ASPH v2 and the 50 Lux ASPH v1 or 50 Cron v5. With either of those kits you’ll be able to do anything. 

[RexGig0]

The character of the background blur, as rendered by the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, is what compelled me to add the Leica M system, almost six years ago. There is more to the character of Summilux images than just the background blur, but background blur is more generally important for portraits than for things shot with a wide-angle or “wide-normal” lens.  I had spent several years researching on-line images, before I started test-shooting the Summilux at a nearby Leica dealer. If I were going to own only one Leica M lens, and one or more M-mount lenses made by Cosina, branded as Voigtlander and/or Zeiss, the authentic Leica lens would be the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH. 

Regarding 28mm, a factor in this reply’s equation is that Cosina (Voigtlander) makes some very highly-regarded 28mm lenses. I do not (yet) own any 28mm Voigtlander lenses, but have been impressed by images I have seen posted, especially images shot with the Ultron II and Nokton. Even though I prefer 35mm and 24mm, more than 28mm, and could use my 21mm Nokton, then crop-in, as a work-around, the new Nokton 28 has my attention.

One of your mentioned “cons” was that f/2.8 may be a limitation, indoors, in the case of the Elmarit 28mm. I do not disagree. I have used my Version III Elmarit-M 28mm indoors, where f/2.8 normally suffices as a maximum aperture, with a wide-angle lens, but, yes, I remember occasions when f/2 would have been helpful. (Edited to add: Your M11 is more-capable, at higher ISO setting, than my M10, so, you have less need for using wider apertures to grab more light.)

Back to 50mm; the Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar is a wonderful lens. I added one, last year, during a Cameraquest pricing promotion, specifically to deal with conditions likely to cause flare, if shot with a pre-II Summilux 50 ASPH. The Summilux ASPH Version II may, or may not, have improved lens coatings, to reduce the likelihood of flaring and ghosting. Plus, I like playing with flare-inducing conditions, creatively, sometimes, so, did not want to replace my original-version Summilux ASPH. (One can never have too many 50mm lenses. 😉 )

I am not a “professional” photographer, and am not any kind of expert.

Edited to add: A difference between the Summilux and the APO Lanthar is that only the Summilux has a focusing tab. In my personal case, I do not favor a focusing tab, when using a 50mm lens, and I actually like the texturing of the APO Lanthar’s focusing ring. Neither the Summilux nor APO Lanthar are compact in size, but, personally, I like some amount of “grip-ability,” when moving about, and favor using my left hand to carry things securely.

Edited February 21, 2024 by RexGig0

[KiloLimaAlpha]

Thanks everyone for your insights.  Yeah I'm looking to buy used but having a hard time finding the 28mm Elmarit latest model used.  There's one in ebay but it's at $1950 and with tax and shipping not very enticing compared to BH Photo Payboo new. I haven't look into used 50 Summilux yet since I figure the close focus version is too new to show up on used market.  The M11 is already on its way, so I will need lens very soon, do you guys have any Leica dealer you can recommend?  I looked at KEH and Popflash, no luck on the Elmarit. 

Glad to hear that the M11 ISO performance is good, I'm pretty committed to option 1 now.  Buy the Elmarit first and continue looking for either a used Summilux or APO. I don't need the 50mm until probably May where my kid will have her promotion ceremony and some nice bokeh portrait would be cool to have. Now I just need to focus on manual focusing.  Last time I did this was on Nikon FM2

Thanks again 

Edited February 21, 2024 by KiloLimaAlpha

[RexGig0]

Leica Store Miami has a pre-owned Elmarit, with a recent Leica CLA having been performed. It is not cheap, but a CLA costs a substantial amount to have performed.

Edited to add: CLA = Clean, Lubricate, Adjust.

Edited February 21, 2024 by RexGig0

[KiloLimaAlpha]

Thanks, I didn't realize Leica have their own used lookup database for their store. But at $2k + tax for a earlier version is pretty expensive.  Probably will just buy new for this one if I can't locate a used one by next Monday. 

[Jeff S]

40 minutes ago, KiloLimaAlpha said:

Thanks, I didn't realize Leica have their own used lookup database for their store. But at $2k + tax for an earlier version is pretty expensive.  Probably will just buy new for this one if I can't locate a used one by next Monday. 

FWIW, Leica Miami doesn’t charge tax for shipping outside of Florida. The listed price is $800 less than current version, and still includes one year warranty and standard store return policy. Unlike shopping on the Bay, prices might be a bit higher, but Miami won’t sell used items without full inspection and servicing if needed, as with this item.

Jeff

[KiloLimaAlpha]

Thanks Jeff! I didn't know that about Leica Miami, I got to browse their store more now.

Another option, I just found a local seller, selling 28mm Summicron v1 for $2000.  This one has been serviced 3 times though, so I'm hesitant because it could be a lemon and I don't want my first Leica experience to have to deal with that.
 

Here's what the ad states, I'm not sure what DAG is and how reliable they are compared to getting CLA directly from Leica.

"It was recently serviced by DAG in May 2023, CLA'd by DAG in May 2021 and also serviced/CLA'd by Leica in May 2016. "

What do you guys think about going that option instead of Summarit?

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, KiloLimaAlpha said:

Thanks Jeff! I didn't know that about Leica Miami, I got to browse their store more now.

Another option, I just found a local seller, selling 28mm Summicron v1 for $2000.  This one has been serviced 3 times though, so I'm hesitant because it could be a lemon and I don't want my first Leica experience to have to deal with that.
 

Here's what the ad states, I'm not sure what DAG is and how reliable they are compared to getting CLA directly from Leica.

"It was recently serviced by DAG in May 2023, CLA'd by DAG in May 2021 and also serviced/CLA'd by Leica in May 2016. "

What do you guys think about going that option instead of Summarit?

DAG is Don Goldberg, one of the premier third party Leica repairers in the US. Leica Miami uses either him or Wetzlar for service. Why you you buy from someone you don’t know rather than from a reputable Leica dealer with warranty and return policy, especially for the same price (Summicron or not)?

Jeff

Edited February 21, 2024 by Jeff S

[KiloLimaAlpha]

Yea you made good point :).  I don't know the difference between v1 and v2.. I prefer the v2 if at all possible so have been pretty focus on finding one.  

[Jeff S]

Many discussions…

Jeff

[dpitt]

My vote is for the Elmarit 28 M F2.8 and a Summicton 50 F2.0.

The Elmarit 28 because it is a wonderful little gem. A perfect example of a tiny lens. The one stop difference makes hardly a difference on the M11 because you can use higher ISO without issues. On the 28mm playing with DOF is hard enough so, going for faster lenses makes much more sense in longer FL.

The Summicron 50 because it is the most typical Leica lens one can buy. And it is great from wide open to stopped down. Yes, the Summilux has sometimes a more dreamy and pleasing way of playing with light. But you pay that not only with money but also in size and weight, and a little bit with distortion and sharpness. The 50mm Summicron has the practical F2.0, not as critical to focus as the Summilux F1.4. Even if you decide later to buy the Summilux, you will probably want to keep the Summicron also.
There is a reason why the superb SL primes are all Summicron...

I am not sure how much this combination will be new, but both can be found easily on the used market. The design for the 50mm has been optically the same since 1979 and physical with built in hood since 1986... They both show what Leica M is all about.

[hansvons]

What @dpitt says. And in the not-too-distant future, you’ll add a 35mm Summicron, as a Leica life is possible without it, but meaningless. 

[JTLeica]

I can’t help too much for the 28, but the I am absolutely blown away by the APO Voigtländer 50, its possibly the best 50 I have ever used, maybe best lens I have ever used.

F2 has no limitations so don’t worry. The difference with the APO lenses is that you can always shoot wide open and get perfect sharpness, never do I feel the need to stop down for sharper results which means shooting landscapes in low light with an M11 is a dream.

I am starting to fall in love with Voigtlander and I never thought I’d say that! Amazing stuff. 

Maybe try the 28 Nokton 1.5 as it looks good.

 

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[ianforber]

I was in a similarly position when I bought my M11 new as my first Leica M. I wanted the full Leica experience and, following a deliberation between 35 and 50, I bought the 50mm Summicron. I wanted a smaller lens than the Summilux and I couldn’t afford the APO. Very happy with my choice. 

I chose a 50mm in part because I have a Q2 and I wanted a focal length sufficiently different from 28mm for me to notice. I’ve since decided to try out 35mm by buying the CV 35mm Nokton f1.5. I did so largely because it had excellent reviews and was basically the same size as the Leica 35mm Summicron so I thought that I would upgrade to the Leica lens if it turned out I liked 35mm. The Nokton is amazing - sharp and modern style and close focusing. I take from this that (a) CV Noktons are definitely worth it and (b) I won’t be buying the Leica 35mm Summicron. 

I am pondering buying a small 28mm and would probably go for the CV 28mm f2.8 Color-Skopar. you may prefer to get the Ultron f2 to get the extra stop.