Leica M11 Monochrome + Elmar M 50mm

[antonioxrosa]

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With the help of the forum I decided to buy the Elmar M 50mm rather than the old version. Still have some concerns about using a collapsible lens with the M11. I saw in the forum quite different opinions. Either that there is no problem or that it is dangerous or even that the camera manual says not to use collapsible lens with the M11. Meanwhile I talked with Leica Classics shop and they state that there is no problem and that I can use it with no problems. As a matter of curiosity I decided to do some calculations. So:

- Leica M flange 27,8mm ; M mount system 7mm (the part entering into the camera) ; Elmar 50mm collapse length 16mm

27,8  - 7 - 16 = 4,8mm Meaning that even with the lens collapsed I will have 4,8 between the rear lens and the shutter.

Am I missing anything?

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[jankap]

The problem arises with cameras with APS-C sensors mainly. These small sensors are surrounded by containments for the shutter. If one does not collapse the Elmar in line (but angled), the lens mount can scratch the containment. Scratching damages the black colour painting.

[UliWer]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb antonioxrosa:

Am I missing anything?

Yes, the diameter of the lenses rear part.

I have written it again and again: Collapsible lenses were produced by Leitz and Leica and used by almost everybody at the times of the M3 pp. And believe me: the distance between the bayonet's flange and the most protruding parts immediately in front of the shutter were shorter with the early M models than with modern digital ones. When they didn't hit something immediately in front of the shutter of an M3 they won't do so for a digital M.

The real issue is the fact that the "mouth" of a digital M is much narrower than it was at film times. So if you attach or loosen the lens when it is collapsed you might scratch the sides of the camera's mouth. So only attach or loosen it, when it is fully extended.

Second there is the little wheel which activates the rangefinder mechanism: your lenses rear might touch this wheel when you collapse it. Though this wheel is exactly at the same position as it has been since the Leica II from 1932 (otherwise old lenses wouldn't be usable anymore, or you couldn't use new lenses on old cameras). The fact that the collapsed lens could touch the wheel didn't bother Barnack and Berek, and perhaps a million of collapsible lenses have been used on all sorts of Leicas since. 

On the other hand: nobody is forced to collapse a collapsible lens. Most of them fully extended are ways shorter than modern rigid ones. 

 

Edited February 16, 2024 by UliWer

[mfunnell]

15 minutes ago, UliWer said:

So only attach or loosen it, when it is fully extended.

Which, BTW, is how I use, and always have used, my Elmar-M 50mm/f2.8 on my DS M3, my Konica Hexar RF and on my M typ 240. As long as you attach and remove it while fully extended there is no problem. Full stop. I really don't see how there can be. On those or any other M camera.

   ...Mike

[antonioxrosa]

2 hours ago, UliWer said:

Yes, the diameter of the lenses rear part.

I have written it again and again: Collapsible lenses were produced by Leitz and Leica and used by almost everybody at the times of the M3 pp. And believe me: the distance between the bayonet's flange and the most protruding parts immediately in front of the shutter were shorter with the early M models than with modern digital ones. When they didn't hit something immediately in front of the shutter of an M3 they won't do so for a digital M.

The real issue is the fact that the "mouth" of a digital M is much narrower than it was at film times. So if you attach or loosen the lens when it is collapsed you might scratch the sides of the camera's mouth. So only attach or loosen it, when it is fully extended.

Second there is the little wheel which activates the rangefinder mechanism: your lenses rear might touch this wheel when you collapse it. Though this wheel is exactly at the same position as it has been since the Leica II from 1932 (otherwise old lenses wouldn't be usable anymore, or you couldn't use new lenses on old cameras). The fact that the collapsed lens could touch the wheel didn't bother Barnack and Berek, and perhaps a million of collapsible lenses have been used on all sorts of Leicas since. 

On the other hand: nobody is forced to collapse a collapsible lens. Most of them fully extended are ways shorter than modern rigid ones. 

 

Many thanks for your detailed explanation. In summary shall I assume that it is safe to use the lens provides I attach and loose the lens always not collapsed?

 

[UliWer]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb antonioxrosa:

shall I assume that it is safe to use the lens provides I attach and loose the lens always not collapsed?

To "use" a lens means that you take pictures with it. Therefore it has to be extended. This normal usage seems very safe to me.

If you handle it will care and never apply force when you collapse it and feel some resistance, i'd call it rather safe. If you feel some resistance it will hit the little wheel of the rangerfinder mechanism, then you better stop. If this happens regularly the rear end of your Elmar-M may be too large. I have heard that the Leica Service cuts off the last black part of the collapsing shaft to make it fit better. Though usually this is not necessary.  

[DrM]

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The manual…:”LENSES WITH LIMITED COMPATIBILITY
COMPATIBLE, BUT MAY POSE RISK OF DAMAGE TO THE
CAMERA AND/OR LENS
– Lenses with retractable tube must only be used with the tube
extended, i.e. never attempt to retract the tube while the lens is
attached to the camera. This does not apply for the current Mak-
ro-Elmar-M 90 f/4 model, as its tube will not retract into the
camera itself and can therefore be used without restriction.
– When using Heavy lenses attached to a tripod-mounted camera,
e.g. Noctilux 50 f/0.95 or Leica R lenses with an adapter: make
sure that the tilt of the tripod head cannot move inadvertently
when the camera is not held. A sudden tilt and impact could
result in damage to the lower edge of the camera bayonet. That
is why you should always use the tripod mount on relevantly
equipped lenses.
COMPATIBLE, BUT EXACT FOCUSING MAY BE LIMITED
Despite the high precision of the rangefinder on the camera, exact
focusing with 135 mm lenses with an open aperture cannot be
guaranteed due to the very low depth of field. We therefore
recommend stopping down by at least 2 steps. Live View mode, on
the other hand, plus the various setting aids provided, allow
unrestricted use of this lens.
USABLE, BUT EXPOSURE METERING IS POSSIBLE ONLY IN
LIVE VIEW MODE
– Super-Angulon-M 21 f/4
– Super-Angulon-M 21 f/3.4
– Elmarit-M 28 f/2.8 (Serial numbers below 2 314 921)
INCOMPATIBLE LENSES
– Hologon 15 f/8
– Summicron 50 f/2 with close-up function
– Elmar 90 f/4 with retractable tube (manufactured 1954-1968)
– Some examples of the Summilux-M 35 f/1.4 (non-aspherical,
manufactured 1961-1995, Made in Canada) cannot be attached
to the camera or cannot focus to infinity. Leica Customer Care
can modify these lenses for use with the camera.”

[antonioxrosa]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

To "use" a lens means that you take pictures with it. Therefore it has to be extended. This normal usage seems very safe to me.

If you handle it will care and never apply force when you collapse it and feel some resistance, i'd call it rather safe. If you feel some resistance it will hit the little wheel of the rangerfinder mechanism, then you better stop. If this happens regularly the rear end of your Elmar-M may be too large. I have heard that the Leica Service cuts off the last black part of the collapsing shaft to make it fit better. Though usually this is not necessary.  

 

1 hour ago, DrM said:

The manual…:”LENSES WITH LIMITED COMPATIBILITY
COMPATIBLE, BUT MAY POSE RISK OF DAMAGE TO THE
CAMERA AND/OR LENS
– Lenses with retractable tube must only be used with the tube
extended, i.e. never attempt to retract the tube while the lens is
attached to the camera. This does not apply for the current Mak-
ro-Elmar-M 90 f/4 model, as its tube will not retract into the
camera itself and can therefore be used without restriction.
– When using Heavy lenses attached to a tripod-mounted camera,
e.g. Noctilux 50 f/0.95 or Leica R lenses with an adapter: make
sure that the tilt of the tripod head cannot move inadvertently
when the camera is not held. A sudden tilt and impact could
result in damage to the lower edge of the camera bayonet. That
is why you should always use the tripod mount on relevantly
equipped lenses.
COMPATIBLE, BUT EXACT FOCUSING MAY BE LIMITED
Despite the high precision of the rangefinder on the camera, exact
focusing with 135 mm lenses with an open aperture cannot be
guaranteed due to the very low depth of field. We therefore
recommend stopping down by at least 2 steps. Live View mode, on
the other hand, plus the various setting aids provided, allow
unrestricted use of this lens.
USABLE, BUT EXPOSURE METERING IS POSSIBLE ONLY IN
LIVE VIEW MODE
– Super-Angulon-M 21 f/4
– Super-Angulon-M 21 f/3.4
– Elmarit-M 28 f/2.8 (Serial numbers below 2 314 921)
INCOMPATIBLE LENSES
– Hologon 15 f/8
– Summicron 50 f/2 with close-up function
– Elmar 90 f/4 with retractable tube (manufactured 1954-1968)
– Some examples of the Summilux-M 35 f/1.4 (non-aspherical,
manufactured 1961-1995, Made in Canada) cannot be attached
to the camera or cannot focus to infinity. Leica Customer Care
can modify these lenses for use with the camera.”

Thanks for share. Could you please let me know from which manual have you extract this text?

[antonioxrosa]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

To "use" a lens means that you take pictures with it. Therefore it has to be extended. This normal usage seems very safe to me.

If you handle it will care and never apply force when you collapse it and feel some resistance, i'd call it rather safe. If you feel some resistance it will hit the little wheel of the rangerfinder mechanism, then you better stop. If this happens regularly the rear end of your Elmar-M may be too large. I have heard that the Leica Service cuts off the last black part of the collapsing shaft to make it fit better. Though usually this is not necessary.  

Once more thanks for the advice....

[antonioxrosa]

2 hours ago, DrM said:

The manual…:”LENSES WITH LIMITED COMPATIBILITY
COMPATIBLE, BUT MAY POSE RISK OF DAMAGE TO THE
CAMERA AND/OR LENS
– Lenses with retractable tube must only be used with the tube
extended, i.e. never attempt to retract the tube while the lens is
attached to the camera. This does not apply for the current Mak-
ro-Elmar-M 90 f/4 model, as its tube will not retract into the
camera itself and can therefore be used without restriction.
– When using Heavy lenses attached to a tripod-mounted camera,
e.g. Noctilux 50 f/0.95 or Leica R lenses with an adapter: make
sure that the tilt of the tripod head cannot move inadvertently
when the camera is not held. A sudden tilt and impact could
result in damage to the lower edge of the camera bayonet. That
is why you should always use the tripod mount on relevantly
equipped lenses.
COMPATIBLE, BUT EXACT FOCUSING MAY BE LIMITED
Despite the high precision of the rangefinder on the camera, exact
focusing with 135 mm lenses with an open aperture cannot be
guaranteed due to the very low depth of field. We therefore
recommend stopping down by at least 2 steps. Live View mode, on
the other hand, plus the various setting aids provided, allow
unrestricted use of this lens.
USABLE, BUT EXPOSURE METERING IS POSSIBLE ONLY IN
LIVE VIEW MODE
– Super-Angulon-M 21 f/4
– Super-Angulon-M 21 f/3.4
– Elmarit-M 28 f/2.8 (Serial numbers below 2 314 921)
INCOMPATIBLE LENSES
– Hologon 15 f/8
– Summicron 50 f/2 with close-up function
– Elmar 90 f/4 with retractable tube (manufactured 1954-1968)
– Some examples of the Summilux-M 35 f/1.4 (non-aspherical,
manufactured 1961-1995, Made in Canada) cannot be attached
to the camera or cannot focus to infinity. Leica Customer Care
can modify these lenses for use with the camera.”

Meanwhile I found the text in the Manual.  Thanks

[antonioxrosa]

1 hour ago, antonioxrosa said:

Once more thanks for the advice....

 

1 hour ago, antonioxrosa said:

Once more thanks for the advice....

Still regarding your input, which was very much appreciated, and just to improve my knowledge about Leica, could you please help me to understand a bit more what really means this paragraph in your message

"Second there is the little wheel which activates the rangefinder mechanism: your lenses rear might touch this wheel when you collapse it. Though this wheel is exactly at the same position as it has been since the Leica II from 1932 (otherwise old lenses wouldn't be usable anymore, or you couldn't use new lenses on old cameras). The fact that the collapsed lens could touch the wheel didn't bother Barnack and Berek, and perhaps a million of collapsible lenses have been used on all sorts of Leicas since"

I thought that the little wheel, part of the range finder mechanism, touches all lens in the same way and that all lens has the "focal tube", lets call it this way, in the same place to ensure the system always works precisely. I also thought that the Elmar m 50mm works in the same way and that only the internal tube will collapses not the "focal tube"

In addition the rangefinder system ( the little wheel and the lens "focal tube" ) I assume are similar or equal in all Leica M cameras and lens. Also that if the Elmar M 50mm can collapse in film M cameras without affecting that little wheel don't see way could not be able to do it in the M11M.

Do you agree with the above?

No doubt about your recommendation to not attach or loose the lens collapsed.

thanks again to improve my knowledge about the Leica M system.

cheers

António

 

[UliWer]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb antonioxrosa:

In addition the rangefinder system ( the little wheel and the lens "focal tube" ) I assume are similar or equal in all Leica M cameras and lens. Also that if the Elmar M 50mm can collapse in film M cameras without affecting that little wheel don't see way could not be able to do it in the M11M.

Do you agree with the above?

Yes, I do.

Though the problem is, that the collapsed tube of the lens might collide with the little wheel in any M body - be it digital or for film - and older collapsible lenses in any screw mount body with coupled rangefinder as well.

If you have an M for film you might open the rear window, open the shutter permanently on „B“ and look what happens if you push the lens into the body. Usually you will see that it passes the little wheel just by a millimeter or less. Now try to wiggle the lenses front a little bit - without force. The 50mm Elmar-M (last version) is not the most stabile in its housing, it may have a little play (the older versions were much better built). With just the slightest movement of the lens tube you will notice that it touches the wheel.

Now what happens if it touches the wheel? Usually the wheel will move backwards and give room for the tube to enter. I think that‘s the reason why Barnack and Berek who constructed the mechanism for the rangefinder and the collapsible lenses didn‘t worry about this. And they didn‘t have to worry about modern laws of producer’s liability… The modern Leica Camera AG has to cope with modern laws. Therefore they write in the manual that the lens cannot be collapsed. If customers don‘t follow the manual it‘s not the company‘s fault.  

P.S.: I just tried this again with an M2 and an Elmar-M: it constantly touches the wheel. I’ll try to make photos to illustrate this tomorrow.

 

Edited February 16, 2024 by UliWer

[antonioxrosa]

Cristal and clear. Many thanks. I will follow your recommendations and I will test it very carefully.

cheers

[UliWer]

So I tried to take some photos from the M2 with opened back door and shutter:

First the "culprit" I am talking about when someone asks whether lenses can be collapsed - the lens is extended, you see the rangerfinder's mechanism with the roller as most exposed part:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Now I collapsed a 50mm Elmar-M - not completely but just to where it collides with the roller (during the photo the camera - approx 400g - rested on the lens and the tube was loose; nevertheless it stuck in this position hold steady by the friction between the tube and the roller):

Now with an older version of the 5cm Elmar - which hasn't the black collar at the tube's end (here I had to hold the camera in this position, since otherwise it would have glided downwards on the lenses tube as there was no friction, though you also see, that the brass "collar" at the tube's end would have been much broader if I hade turned the lens a little bit different):

 

So what to make of all this?

First of all: the diameter of the black collar of the Elmar-M at its tubes end is too big.  Second: even lenses with a traditional smaller collar might collide if they  pass the roller at their broadest position. Third: the M2 still has a screw to hold (or to regulate) the roller and it protrudes just a fraction of a millimeter. Digital M models don't  have this screw any more - so perhaps a digital model runs a lower "risk" ... though this is mere conjecture as nobody can control what happens when a collapsible lens enters a digital body.

Of course we have the almost overwhelming evidence that nothing (?) ever (?) happened when millions of users collapsed their lenses in Leica cameras. On the other hand I try to imagine that a lens was collapsed always scratching along the roller - ten times, a hundred times etc. Would nobody think that it was possible that very small metal splinters resulted from this procedure, land on the shutter or the sensor?

Anyway - I own all versions of collapsible Leica lenses screwmount and M-mount and I use all of them one time or other with bodies for film or a digital M. I never collapse them, since I don't see any necessity to do so. 

 

 

 

[antonioxrosa]

I received my Elmar m 50mm that I bought from Leica Classics this morning. Regarding the compatibility with the M11 they confirmed by e-mail that it works fine and can be collapsed. I took the risk and tested this morning. It seems to work with any problem. 
In my humble opinion:
- better to attach and loose the lens not collapsed to avoid touching by mistake the small wheel or the interior of the camera
- the statement in Leica manual to not use collapsible lens is just to avoid liabilities in case anyone attach/loose the lens with less care
I just decided to share this as others also help me to take the decision.
By all means I respect all different opinions

[antonioxrosa]

On 2/17/2024 at 3:55 PM, UliWer said:

So I tried to take some photos from the M2 with opened back door and shutter:

First the "culprit" I am talking about when someone asks whether lenses can be collapsed - the lens is extended, you see the rangerfinder's mechanism with the roller as most exposed part:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Now I collapsed a 50mm Elmar-M - not completely but just to where it collides with the roller (during the photo the camera - approx 400g - rested on the lens and the tube was loose; nevertheless it stuck in this position hold steady by the friction between the tube and the roller):

Now with an older version of the 5cm Elmar - which hasn't the black collar at the tube's end (here I had to hold the camera in this position, since otherwise it would have glided downwards on the lenses tube as there was no friction, though you also see, that the brass "collar" at the tube's end would have been much broader if I hade turned the lens a little bit different):

 

So what to make of all this?

First of all: the diameter of the black collar of the Elmar-M at its tubes end is too big.  Second: even lenses with a traditional smaller collar might collide if they  pass the roller at their broadest position. Third: the M2 still has a screw to hold (or to regulate) the roller and it protrudes just a fraction of a millimeter. Digital M models don't  have this screw any more - so perhaps a digital model runs a lower "risk" ... though this is mere conjecture as nobody can control what happens when a collapsible lens enters a digital body.

Of course we have the almost overwhelming evidence that nothing (?) ever (?) happened when millions of users collapsed their lenses in Leica cameras. On the other hand I try to imagine that a lens was collapsed always scratching along the roller - ten times, a hundred times etc. Would nobody think that it was possible that very small metal splinters resulted from this procedure, land on the shutter or the sensor?

Anyway - I own all versions of collapsible Leica lenses screwmount and M-mount and I use all of them one time or other with bodies for film or a digital M. I never collapse them, since I don't see any necessity to do so. 

 

 

 

Hi, I went to your detailed explanation and I found it very clear and very helpful. I do not have a film Leica but I tried to investigate the same issue in the M11M. My conclusions where:

- the little wheel need to touch all M lens to operate the rangefinder system. It touch a specific tube ( let’s call it focus tube) in the rear part of the lens. This tube goes back and forwards depending on the focus distance.

- Elmar M has this same tube, same diameter as other lens to ensure it works the same way.

- The diameter of the collapsible tube including the rear black ring is +|- 2mm inferior than the focus ring. 
So, I don’t know if the collapsible tube touch the wheel, but I would say that, if it touches the pressure will be much less that when touched by the focus ring.

Again, this is just sharing thoughts, and I do respect all different opinions.