Weather sealed M lenses...

[thrid]

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Dear Leica -

Now that we have weather sealed digital M bodies, how about adding a few weather sealed M-mount lenses?

A few days ago me and my M11 were wandering around Fire Valley National Park (Nevada) in the pouring down rain. I wasn't too worried about the M11 body getting wet, but as always the unsealed lenses were giving me some concern for the usual reasons.

- Water ingress into the body through the mount. This was less of an issue with the film bodies, but as we all know water and electronics don't mix well...

- Condensation forming inside the electronic M11 body and or lenses. Condensation has always been an issue, when moving between large ambient temperature ranges, so that's nothing new. I usually stick the camera into a plastic ziplock bag to minimize the effect, but still.... A sealed body and lens combo would go a long way in minimizing that issue.

For years my usual approach has been to shoot with an umbrella or drape a bandana over the camera, or tuck it into my jacket between shots to minimize exposure. But none of those options offer an ideal solution.
 
Back in the day we had the Summar 2/50 Tropic, which added some extra protection to the standard item.

Maybe we could call this line 'Safari' or something along those lines. 

I suspect that adding gaskets to the lens housing and mount would increase the size of the lenses by some margin. Therefore I suggest sealed 'Safari' versions of the Summicron 28mm, 35mm and 50mm to start, since these lenses are the most compact in the lineup.

Summicron-M Safari 2/50mm

I like the sound of that...

Anyone?

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[LeicaR10]

Thrid,   Your idea has been sounded by a great many Leica M lens users over the many years.  In your case wandering around the Valley of Fire State park in Nevada in the rain is a rare occurrance as I have done so myself over the many years.  Frankly, during my 40+ years of Leica M and R use, I have found the M lenses to be more robust to moisture than are given credit.  So too, my travels to the Amazon, Panama, Colombia and other locations for my work, the M lenses never failed me in high humidity/rainy environments.  I have never had to service any M or R lens for moisture damage...knock on wood.  I can say the digital M cameras needed needed weather sealing because these are simply computers capable of image capture.  Would I support weather sealing of M lenses?  Sure, but IMO its not really necessary and it would be far more expensive to produce and service.  Plus, there are enough M photographers who whinge at the cost of Leica anything, let alone higher price M lenses with weather sealing.   Personally, I use a little common sense when out in hostile wet weather enviroments, like using a clear optical glass filter on the front element, wiping off the lens after use and using silica gel packets in my packs.  Last, if I know the weather is going to be mostly rain, I simply take my SL2 cameras and SL lenses to the field.  Just my opinions, and your ideas are certainly valid...IMO.   r/ Mark

Edited February 9, 2024 by LeicaR10

[hansvons]

I think (not that I know for certain) that manually focusing lenses is hard, if not impossible, to properly weather seal. Even in cinema land, where the top shelf sees almost no budget constraints, no weather-sealed manual lenses exist—at least to my knowledge. 

While Leica knows how to build high-end glass and sell their lenses for a hefty premium in a relatively small market, they can't afford to design a product line that caters to a very few without that special ah-moment (e.g., Noctilux line) that pays into the brand’s reputation without costing too much. So, I’m sure there will never be a Rain Forest line.

Pros counter potential damage risks with specific insurance and backup gear. These are cheaper, even in the long run than a potential set of weather-sealed lenses. I’ve done it many times and needed it only twice when bricking a camera body with Sahara sand and with high-speed filming (cinema, known risk).

[thrid]

Hey Mark.

Our experiences mirror each other in many ways and I see your point.

I've been shooting Leica M coming up on 30 years now in all sorts of weather, including a few years in London, where rain is as common as pubs.

I primarily shoot street photography and documentary style work, so my cameras are rarely in the bag and often subjected to hours of exposure.

So, far I have not experienced fungal growth or other damage to any lenses, but all 6 of my M film bodies were on a 2 year rotation cycle for a CLA due to the constant exposure to the elements. I'm very conscientious regarding maintenance of my gear. It gets heavily used, but not abused and preventive maintenance is the key to reliability and longevity.

In any case things have changed with the advent of the digital M cameras, which as you stated correctly, are really nothing more than handheld computers with a sensor and lens mount. And obviously that makes them more susceptible to moisture and given the cost of an M11 something that is a little more on my mind.

As far cost goes; Leica moved past the point of no return a long time ago. They are now a luxury brand and are catering to a very different clientele than they had been for the past 100 years. 

 I suggested basing this new line of sealed lenses on the Summicron family for a few reasons.

- They are the most compact lenses in the current line up and hopefully the addition of gaskets would not have them grow beyond the size of a Summilux.

- They are the cheapest M lenses in the lineup. Hopefully adding weather sealing would not inflate the price beyond that of a Summilux and maybe land somewhere in-between.

- Servicing any Leica item is expensive and adding few gaskets should really not make that much of a difference. It's going to cost a kidney no matter what.

- Adding a new line to the catalog doesn't mean that existing items would be discontinued. It would simply add the option for those who need that capability and are willing to pay for it. 

- There still are massive amounts of used lenses on the market for those of us without an unlimited bank account.

- Increased sales mean greater financial stability for Leica.

 If things get really nasty I fall back on my Nikon DSLR bodies and lenses. I'm not a fan of EVF bodies, as they still have too much lag for my style of shooting.

But it would be nice to add the option of extra protection to the M lineup for those who need it and are willing to pay for it.

It would also allow me to only carry around one system, instead of having to bring along the Nikons just in case.

Cheers

Edited February 9, 2024 by thrid

[thrid]

4 minutes ago, hansvons said:

I think (not that I know for certain) that manually focusing lenses is hard, if not impossible, to properly weather seal. Even in cinema land, where the top shelf sees almost no budget constraints, no weather-sealed manual lenses exist—at least to my knowledge. 

While Leica knows how to build high-end glass and sell their lenses for a hefty premium in a relatively small market, they can't afford to design a product line that caters to a very few without that special ah-moment (e.g., Noctilux line) that pays into the brand’s reputation without costing too much. So, I’m sure there will never be a Rain Forest line.

Pros counter potential damage risks with specific insurance and backup gear. These are cheaper, even in the long run than a potential set of weather-sealed lenses. I’ve done it many times and needed it only twice when bricking a camera body with Sahara sand and with high-speed filming (cinema, known risk).

True. I also work in film production and own an Alexa Classic (which is well sealed). I think I have never seen a weather sealed cine lens, but we also work in a far more controlled manner...
 

[hansvons]

Yes, the Alexa is well-sealed. I owned an Epic Dragon and even this camera was okay in light drizzle. But I didn't trust it, as I did with rental Alexas. The PL mount is by design bullet and waterproof, but typical bayonet mounts are not. And yes, we work mostly in controlled environments. But I shot b-roll stuff for my projects and documentaries and weather resistance was an issue. Umbrellas are a great piece of gear, BTW. 

[pgk]

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In theory it would be possible to add some 'O' rings to a manual focus lens in order to allow aperture and focus to operate and a gasket around the exterior of the mounting area (like L Canon AF lenses) however .....

Seals need maintenance because they wear out and this is especially true of seals intended to seal a moving surface. 'O' rings are the simplest for round applications but need to be lubricated and when the lubrication is dirty or dry they will tend to drag and make things like focus difficult. There is a precedent in that if you look at the original Nikonos lenses you will see that the original Calypsophot design got around the problem of seals by using smaller 'O' rings around a knob which used ain internal gear mechanism to adjust focus and aperture (and the original 35mm Som Brethiot and Nikkor lenses were both dreived from rangefinder lens designs). Surprisingly this still enabled 'relatively' small lenses. So basically I don't think that M lenses could be easily modified in their existing form factor because to do so would cause too many problems, and modifying their form factor to something similar to the Nikonos designs would be quite possible but would increase bulk and so change the entire ergonomics of the camera and lens.

Such an idea is quite possible to implement its not been done because its not easy and the end result might well be difficult to market.

As an aside, the simplest way to implement such an idea might be to have a lens housing built which was like the exterior of a Nikonos lens and which fitted over the lens and drove focus and aperture via rubberised cams. This could be 'O' ring sealed. The problem would be with the body and sealing such a housing at this point - tricky but no doubt doable. But I doubt that any of this would make economic sense.

[hansvons]

59 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

My Amira had the "jacket" on - the PortaBrace rain cover.

I loved the Amira. A bit heavy, though. However, when digital took over, Amira's design and form factor were second to none. Portrabraces were a kind of religion. Some believed in it (and it looked warzone-like, especially when beaten up), and others, like me, found it too much in the way.

[kivis]

Started with Nikon F's in 1974, added a Nikon FE in 1983. Got an M3 with a'cron 50mm. Went digital with an M-P 240 and recently upgraded to an M10. Live in humid sweaty South Florida. Been caught in  many a squall. Never had a problem that a dry dish rag couldn't fix. 

[dpitt]

5 hours ago, thrid said:

They are now a luxury brand and are catering to a very different clientele than they had been for the past 100 years. 

Let's look into that.
Price of a M3 with rigid Summicron in 1960 was $447
Average income was $5600 so that is 8%

Price of an M11-P + Summicron 50 now is $11800
Average income is 67521 so that is 17,5%
Price of M6 (2.0) is 5695 so that is ~ 7800 or 12%

So, yes it seems like they got more expensive, but we need also consider that film cost is not included in this price. Today it would be easy to spend $1000  a year on film. Spread over 5 years that would increase total cost of ownership by 50% compared to today which brings film and digital close together.

So i think it is a slight increase in price, but at that time it was harder to get in the Leica brand at a lower cost. (M2 was only $120 less than the M3) while you can have a Q3 now for half the price of M11-P + Summicron 50

 

[Jeff S]

8 hours ago, thrid said:

Now that we have weather sealed digital M bodies, 

None are IP rated as the SL2 (IP54).  Different tools.

That said, I’ve had no issues using the M system in inclement weather, using common sense precautions, from the 80’s until now.

Jeff

[thrid]

15 hours ago, hansvons said:

I loved the Amira. A bit heavy, though. However, when digital took over, Amira's design and form factor were second to none. Portrabraces were a kind of religion. Some believed in it (and it looked warzone-like, especially when beaten up), and others, like me, found it too much in the way.

One of the best doc cameras ever made...

[thrid]

11 hours ago, dpitt said:

Let's look into that.
Price of a M3 with rigid Summicron in 1960 was $447
Average income was $5600 so that is 8%

Price of an M11-P + Summicron 50 now is $11800
Average income is 67521 so that is 17,5%
Price of M6 (2.0) is 5695 so that is ~ 7800 or 12%

So, yes it seems like they got more expensive, but we need also consider that film cost is not included in this price. Today it would be easy to spend $1000  a year on film. Spread over 5 years that would increase total cost of ownership by 50% compared to today which brings film and digital close together.

So i think it is a slight increase in price, but at that time it was harder to get in the Leica brand at a lower cost. (M2 was only $120 less than the M3) while you can have a Q3 now for half the price of M11-P + Summicron 50

 

Here's how I look at it...

I bought my first M around 1996. It was a M6ttl for $2495 at Sammy's Camera in Los Angeles.
At that time a Canon 1-v or Nikon F5 was about $2000-$2200.

All of these were high end cameras and top of the line for each manufacturer.

A Leica always had a premium cost, but we were taking about 10-20% over the competition. (At least for the bodies. Lenses are another story.)

Nowadays a Nikon Z9 is about $5500 and the M11 is $8900-9200 depending on what model you are looking at.

That's a lot more than the 10-20% difference we knew from the past.

I really don't think that including film cost is a good argument, because back in the film days you had to buy film for all cameras. It's also been what? 20 years since the M8? For Leica the film days are long gone.

Leica had to go upscale to survive, because they don't have the resources or sales figures like Canon, Nikon, Sony etc where they can take advantage of the economies of scale in producing goods etc. It was a smart move and they have been very successful as a result, but in a sense they did swap one client base for a new and more affluent one.

Also keep in mind that Leicas are made in Germany and thanks to many poor economic decisions over the past decade the cost of production and living in the country has skyrocketed. Those costs get passed along to the customer.

 

[dpitt]

4 hours ago, thrid said:

Here's how I look at it...

I bought my first M around 1996. It was a M6ttl for $2495 at Sammy's Camera in Los Angeles.
At that time a Canon 1-v or Nikon F5 was about $2000-$2200.

All of these were high end cameras and top of the line for each manufacturer.

A Leica always had a premium cost, but we were taking about 10-20% over the competition. (At least for the bodies. Lenses are another story.)

Nowadays a Nikon Z9 is about $5500 and the M11 is $8900-9200 depending on what model you are looking at.

That's a lot more than the 10-20% difference we knew from the past.

I really don't think that including film cost is a good argument, because back in the film days you had to buy film for all cameras. It's also been what? 20 years since the M8? For Leica the film days are long gone.

Leica had to go upscale to survive, because they don't have the resources or sales figures like Canon, Nikon, Sony etc where they can take advantage of the economies of scale in producing goods etc. It was a smart move and they have been very successful as a result, but in a sense they did swap one client base for a new and more affluent one.

Also keep in mind that Leicas are made in Germany and thanks to many poor economic decisions over the past decade the cost of production and living in the country has skyrocketed. Those costs get passed along to the customer.

 

I think that you came to about the same conclusion as I, sort of. I live in Belgium where production cost and cost of living increased even more than in Germany for the last few years. We saw an increase of food pices of 30-50% in the last 3 years. Consumer goods and services  did go up also. Even public transport which is heavily subsidised here increased ticket prices by at least 30%.

So no wonder that a product which relies on manual labor as much as the Leica M bodies, will increase in price with a similar amount.

But in my comparisons it also shows a 20% extra compared to the past if you look at the price of the M11. I remember that the M8 was sold in 2006 for 2295€ and the M9 was 3295€ in 2009. That was about the same as the Canon 5D series at that time. So indeed Leica has moved up the scale and now a Leica M is even more expensive than the top of the line Canon and Nikon, and even more expensive than the SL line.

Maybe a stripped down M11-S (24MP) would cost less and would be closer to the price of the M6 2.0 or SL2 now?

Edited February 10, 2024 by dpitt

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, dpitt said:

Maybe a stripped down M11-S (24MP) would cost less and would be closer to the price of the M6 2.0 or SL2 now?

That would be very tempting. But I don't think it will happen. I have no idea what the sourcing cost difference is between a 24MP and 60MP sensor, but I guess it wouldn't be in a ballpark that an M11-S could be sold with a significant discount.

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, dpitt said:

I think that you came to about the same conclusion as I, sort of. I live in Belgium where production cost and cost of living increased even more than in Germany for the last few years. We saw an increase of food pices of 30-50% in the last 3 years. Consumer goods and services  did go up also. Even public transport which is heavily subsidised here increased ticket prices by at least 30%.

So no wonder that a product which relies on manual labor as much as the Leica M bodies, will increase in price with a similar amount.

But in my comparisons it also shows a 20% extra compared to the past if you look at the price of the M11. I remember that the M8 was sold in 2006 for 2295€ and the M9 was 3295€ in 2009. That was about the same as the Canon 5D series at that time. So indeed Leica has moved up the scale and now a Leica M is even more expensive than the top of the line Canon and Nikon, and even more expensive than the SL line.

Maybe a stripped down M11-S (24MP) would cost less and would be closer to the price of the M6 2.0 or SL2 now?

Are you sure your memory is correct? I am not sure of the euro price, but the M8 was launched at around 5000 dollars with a street price of 4500-4700, the M8.2 was 6000 dollars and the M9 was 7000 dollars and the street price was I think 6700 USD.

[dpitt]

8 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Are you sure your memory is correct? I am not sure of the euro price, but the M8 was launched at around 5000 dollars with a street price of 4500-4700, the M8.2 was 6000 dollars and the M9 was 7000 dollars and the street price was I think 6700 USD.

Ah... Yes, memory issue 🤔
I was wrong of the year probably. The 2295 € which I am sure that I saw was probably in 2011 or so, new but old stock, with full warranty, still official price from Leica for the M8 but when the M9 was already around, and also the M8.2.

Even that was too much for me at the time. I bought a used M8, for 1550€ in Dec of 2010, with a few months of warranty left. It might have been 2950€ new... I now remember the M8 dropped in price towards the end of production. Did not know about the 5000€...
Anybody knows how much the M9 sold in € in 2009? I know, that I saw it at 3500€ around 2015...

Edited February 10, 2024 by dpitt

[pgk]

22 minutes ago, hansvons said:

That would be very tempting. But I don't think it will happen. I have no idea what the sourcing cost difference is between a 24MP and 60MP sensor, but I guess it wouldn't be in a ballpark that an M11-S could be sold with a significant discount.

IMO its where Leica need to be. The M11 holds no appeal for me at all (the M10 is a much more interesting camera and is what I would buy if I had to replace an M9) and there is a lot of competition if specification is not appropriate. Sony have differentiated their line up in MPixel terms quite effectively and charged less for an otherwise similar camera with a lomer MPixel count.

There are only so many people prepared to pay the high price for a camera which is (IMO) overspecified and losing its way. Trying to sell a camera on its history and merits is fine but eventually it will wear thin.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

The M8 cost 4.192 Euro, the M8.2  4.999. the M9 5.500 Euro, the 240 6.700 Euro. I know, I bought all of them.

As for weather sealing, the M lenses are, according to Leica, made to such narrow tolerances that no further sealing is needed. They are also fully mechanical, so moisture damage is unlikely. The real point of worry is the mount. It appears to be very difficult to weatherseal a legacy mount like this adequately.  I would advise to use some kind of protection there, like maybe a rubber band.

Having said that, even the non-sealed M cameras are pretty moisture resistant, mine have sat in a puddle of water on an open boat in high waves, survived fogging up completely, several members have dunked theirs accidentally without ill effects. 

BTW weather sealing offers no protection at all against internal condensation, nor rain coming in horizontally in wind. 

 

42 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Are you sure your memory is correct? I am not sure of the euro price, but the M8 was launched at around 5000 dollars with a street price of 4500-4700, the M8.2 was 6000 dollars and the M9 was 7000 dollars and the street price was I think 6700 USD.

 

 

39 minutes ago, dpitt said:

Ah... Yes, memory issue 🤔
I was wrong of the year probably. The 2295 € which I am sure that I saw was probably in 2011 or so, new but old stock, with full warranty, still official price from Leica for the M8 but when the M9 was already around, and also the M8.2.

Even that was too much for me at the time. I bought a used M8, for 1550€ in Dec of 2010, with a few months of warranty left. It might have been 2950€ new... I now remember the M8 dropped in price towards the end of production. Did not know about the 5000€...
Anybody knows how much the M9 sold in € in 2009? I know, that I saw it at 3500€ around 2015...

 

[hansvons]

@pgk, can't agree more. I own the SL2-S and recently fell in love again with its sensor. Having that sensor in an M-body would be my digital M. 

The M is about user experience and a certain type of photography that I would describe as tangible. It’s never been about technical perfection but always was about the essentials of photography, providing manual focusing and its role for artistic expression a sanctuary in today's world of AI-driven image-making. 

But this organic focusing means less precision compared to perfectly AF-focused photography. Leica answers this issue with an additional EVF, somehow admitting that their 60MP outperforms the RF system.

They fell prey to the MP race and lost their mantra of Das Wesentliche (which arguably would be a sensor’s fidelity and not resolution) by catering to a customer base that believes more in numbers and price tags than images. 

A pity. But as long as I can shoot on film with my Ms, I’m not much bothered.