The paradoxes of M lens size

[RexGig0]

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4 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Jeez, I made a mistake... It was supposed to say NOCTILUX. Noctilux is such a "curiously try first and dump soon" lens for so many exactly because of its size & weight.

I had wondered about that, and almost said something, until I thought for a moment, and realized that I had seen such statements from some former Summilux users, too, especially former Summilux ASPH users.

Some folks seem to think that if a lens causes an M camera to tip forward, the lens is too heavy. I do not mind that a lens causes an M camera to tip or tilt forward. So, Summilux-M 50 ASPH, APO Summicron-M 75 ASPH, and Zeiss Distagon 35/1.4 ZM lenses are some of my favorites. I do, however, reasonably believe that Noctilux 50/0.95 and 75/1.25 lenses would not be enjoyable, for me, for walking-about with an M camera. 

[wdshuck]

I just ordered a VM 40 2.8 Heliar for something more pocketable. I normally use either a 35 Summilux FLE or 50 Summicron, but wanted something I could throw in a jacket pocket vs carry the camera on my shoulder.

[Olaf_ZG]

2 hours ago, wdshuck said:

I just ordered a VM 40 2.8 Heliar for something more pocketable. I normally use either a 35 Summilux FLE or 50 Summicron, but wanted something I could throw in a jacket pocket vs carry the camera on my shoulder.

Paired with a 28mm summaron a really nice tiny set.

[250swb]

I don't really care what size the lens or camera body is so long as there is a reasonable balance between the two. That means it could be an M body with a small Voigtlander 28mm Skopar on the one hand, or a Nikon F2 and a 135mm Nikkor on the other. So as lenses get bigger the body should be heavier and beefier. With luck knowing what type of photographs I want to make chooses the equipment, not the equipment choosing the photographs. I find tele lenses on M bodies to be pretty hopeless hence an SLR is a better alternative. And while an LTM and collapsible Elmar is a beautiful thing to use if it was a pocket I had in mind for it I'd go the whole hog and put an Olympus 35RC or quality P&S in instead. And we are now one day away from climatological Winter, in the cold do I want to fiddle with tiny aperture rings and dials when I can keep my gloves on, no I don't! 😄

[pippy]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

...And we are now one day away from climatological Winter, in the cold do I want to fiddle with tiny aperture rings and dials when I can keep my gloves on, no I don't! 😄

Funny you should mention that aspect. One of the things I loved about using the Nikon F / F2 cameras in the depths of a Scottish Winter was that even when wearing a pair of sheepskin mittens I could still adjust all controls as neccessary.

Herbert G. Ponting would have appreciated these cameras!

Philip.

[pgk]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

Funny you should mention that aspect. One of the things I loved about using the Nikon F / F2 cameras in the depths of a Scottish Winter was that even when wearing a pair of sheepskin mittens I could still adjust all controls as neccessary.

The early Nikonos cameras had accessory rubber dials which, when fitted, made controls bigger for use underwater with neoprene gloved hands. Great idea!

[Martin B]

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Size and weight are important especially when traveling. For example walking through NYC a whole day and carrying one bag with Leica M camera and a set of 3-4 lenses makes me appreciating that I am able to use smaller and less heavy lenses. One lens I always take on trips is my slower but small and light ultra-wide CV 12/5.6 II lens. It fits in my pocket! I got photos with this lens which would have been impossible to do with a larger lens of the same or similar focal length. The CV 12/5.6 for example can easily fit through a fence mesh. Very helpful in close-off museum or construction areas.  

I have a very nice chrome Leica 50/2.0 Summicron V lens which has only one disadvantage - its weight. On travel, I have mostly replaced it now with my CV 75/1.5 lens - a bit longer focal length and longer lens built but still a lot lighter and adds in range nicely to a 35 or 28 mm M mount lens. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Martin B

[UliWer]

Even small lenses for the Leica M are "huge" if you compare them to the equivalents for the Zeiss Ikon Contax:

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Left: Leitz Summaron 1:3,5/35m and Zeiss Planar 1:3.5/35mm; right: Zeiss Biogon 1:4,5/21mm and Leitz Super-Angulon 1:3.4/21mm.

To change f-stops for the Zeiss lenses you had to turn the filter thread... and don't you dare to leave your finger below the 21mm Biogon when you take a photo if you don't like your finger on every shot.

 

 

[Luke_Miller]

As a long time TLR, SLR, and DSLR shooter, viewfinder blockage was a factor I was concerned with when starting with the M.  I'm primarily an event shooter and shoot quickly to get the expressions, groupings, gesture, etc. I am looking for. The M viewfinder works well for me, since, unlike my other bodies, I can see what is currently outside the frame.  Except where the lens/hood is blocking the frame. So I like small lenses.  I subscribe to Sean Reid's ReidReviews site and appreciate that when he reviews m-mount lenses he often begins with a "Seeing the Subject" section in which he documents how much of the area inside the frame lines is blocked by the lens, with and without, hood. My lenses tend to score well in this regard.

[newtoleica]

2 hours ago, Luke_Miller said:

As a long time TLR, SLR, and DSLR shooter, viewfinder blockage was a factor I was concerned with when starting with the M.  I'm primarily an event shooter and shoot quickly to get the expressions, groupings, gesture, etc. I am looking for. The M viewfinder works well for me, since, unlike my other bodies, I can see what is currently outside the frame.  Except where the lens/hood is blocking the frame. So I like small lenses.  I subscribe to Sean Reid's ReidReviews site and appreciate that when he reviews m-mount lenses he often begins with a "Seeing the Subject" section in which he documents how much of the area inside the frame lines is blocked by the lens, with and without, hood. My lenses tend to score well in this regard.

Street photography here, but can't say this has ever felt an issue for me. Always aware what's around me and estimating what's in/out of the frame whether its in the VF or not. I use the 24mm Summilux without a separate finder so cant see all of that anyway!

[bilbrown]

I need a body that will be unobtrusive and I can keep over my shoulder or around my neck, and typically under a light coat or heavy coat in case I need to keep people from seeing right away I have a camera. So this topic is something I think about a lot. I have to balance lens performance with size and this has been the conundrum.

 

I for a long time used Summaron lenses. First the 28 reissue, then as luck would have it a 35/3.5 Summaron I found in a tiny shop at Paris Opera. 

During the pandemic I carried around a hefty Summilux 50 Black Chrome, I still keep this on my M10M and this might keep me from using that camera since with the brass body and brass lens, the camera is almost heavier than my SL2 with a Sigma 90 I-series. Funny enough I was shooing a 90 TE from 2020 to earlier this year, and really wanted the fat version but ended up with a 90/4 made for the CL because of weight.

In the last month or less, since I switched from the brass M10 bodies to a M11P, I have been using my old trusty 35 + 28 Summicrons, with a 75 Summarit as tele. For a 50 I have been using the LLL Pancro S2 homage and I have not used a 90 at all. I think the less weight of the black aluminum M11P, and the high high resolution sensor, innately made me lean toward the sharper/more reliable of my lenses or the ones with sort of a real character.

So, I think (for me anyway) the overall weight of the camera and lens combo is the most important thing. Also, this is completely dependent on what I am planning on shooting and how long. If I am going into a club or dark tungsten lit (or unlit as the case may be) scene, I will likely want my Monochrom. I had the Q2M for a while and that was great – I didn't have to think about lenses at all and it was a featherweight! But for now I will use my M10M then I may want to use my 50 lux because wide-open is practical. As I pointed out above, this will be a heavy kit.

Now that I have an M11 variant I can basically shoot what I have been shooting on the M10M/Q2M with only a stop or so less light and higher resolution with the M11P. So this opens my kit up a bit more, because the M11 black body is so light I can use faster, sharper lenses that won't be too heavy and still keep the look I want. I can even carry two or more lenses and have the same basic weight dispersal as a brass body M plus brass lux before. Yes, I won't get lower than f2 - but typically I won't need it because either the sensor is so good or I am not afraid to use flash with my M, but still stay discreet and not flashy.

*Note: I have considered the Noctilux-M 50/1.2 reissue because it seems to be less weight than my black chrome Lux. Then I could have the best of both worlds!

Edited November 30, 2023 by bilbrown
added

[JoshuaR]

I care a decent amount about size and weight, and won't use a lens if it's above a certain size—basically the size of the 50 Lux ASPH. I sold my Q2 and 35 FLE in part because I felt they were too big. Now I own three cameras (M10, M10M, M6) and five lenses, and I basically have three setups—two small, one large—which I adopt depending on circumstances:

• Small setup 1: 28mm Summaron + 50mm Elmar-M
• Small setup 2: 35mm Steel Rim Reissue
• Large setup: 28mm Summicron + 50mm Summilux ASPH

Often, what decides it for me is what kind of pockets I have available. Small pockets = Summaron and Elmar-M. No pockets = Steel Rim reissue. Jacket pocket = 28 Cron + 50 Lux. The basic idea is to have one lens on the camera, the other in a pocket. Of course, if I have a special kind of shot in mind, I'll pack for that.