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The Quiet M8 Alternative


marknorton

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Guest malland

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LCT, I hate to say it but one can blur the background in post-processing, depending on one's Photoshop or LightZone skills, but I would hasten to say that if I was doing it often I'd rather have a camera that can provide it directly.

 

Sean, I agree that the camera should not trump the work, but until I try the RD-1 I won't really know. I also look forward to your review of the GR-D II.

 

Walt, I like your GR-1 picture. Yes, I've been thinking of setting up a GR-D permanently with the 40mm converter as well as having one with the 28mm but if that works out I would probably end up with three of these cameras because I also want one with the 21mm converter, whose quality I find spectacular, as in the first picture below. For comparison the second one is taken with the Leica-M 21ASPH on Tr-X, which I prefer because of the difference in the light which cause the flare rather than because of lens quality:

 

 

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What I'll have to decide is whether I want to use this three GR-D approach or keep shooting with the GX100, which of course is very convenient. My conclusion on the GX100 is preliminary until I get back to Bangkok in a few weeks and have a chance to make some huge (40x52 inch, 100x133cm) prints, as I have done with the GR-D: so far I find that the GX100 RAW files are substantially softer than those of the GR-D, but that most of the time, surprisingly, but not always, I can close this gap by aggressive sharpening:

 

 

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Imants, the GR-D's mid-tone compression hasn't bothered me much because I usually squeeze the mid=tones anyway in going for higher contrast.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Flickr: Photos from Mitch Alland

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LCT, I hate to say it but one can blur the background in post-processing, depending on one's Photoshop or LightZone skills...

Tried this for 4 years with my small sensor digicams already, with no avail so far. Could you point me to a technique giving natural results this way?

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Because of the differences in post capture processing I really look for different qualities in a digital camera then a film camera. In addition B+W and color have very different requirements. With digital I want to capture as much information as possible so that I have maximum flexibility in post. The M8 I must say is very good in terms of the malleability of the files -aside from the size and M finder it is the camera's most endearing quality.

 

The small sensor cameras are more one trick ponies but if you like the look and are shooting B+W it is a perfect solution, smaller and quieter and cheaper. Color however is a different story and while I love 35mm B+W I never liked 35mm color (especially color negative 35mm) which is why when I switched to color I started shooting a Plaubel 670. Mitch Epstein who shoots color exclusively uses Mamiya RF cameras for much of his work.

 

When speaking about the M8 or any digicam it's really a totally different perspective if you shoot B+W exclusively. I started photography again after a 20 year hiatus about 7 years ago and I'm still finding my way with color and digital. When I shot B+W with a Leica in the 70's I knew exactly what I was looking for from the sensor and the print and focused on the capture. I really didn't think about the camera (M4) / sensor (TriX) processing (Rodinal). If it weren't for my conversion to color and then digital I would have happily snapped away with that combo for a lifetime. I'm not sure that all this choice and technology has improved my images at all.

 

But the M8 with all it's warts has been a vast improvement after shooting Canon 1 series for the last 3 years and it allows for quite a range of possibilities in color and B+W. Once if ever I get into the groove I had with my M4 and TriX then I'll know better exactly what I need from my digicam.

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I should add that part of the need to move to medium format was that I started to do commercial work which now also factors into the equation. The M8 is unique in that I can use it for the commercial stuff that formerly required MF film and I can use it to do personal stuff in the same way I used my M4.

 

However I'd rather have a DSLR for the commercial stuff and an M8 for what the M was designed for then see the M8 drift away from it's core mission in pursuit of large format IQ. Hopefully Leica is focused on developing the M as an M.

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So Hank what is your quiet M8 alternative .....lf we start hitting MF we are going into the realm of visual noise which may be worse than audible shutter noise.........( medium format cameras arouse a fair bit of interest).

mine was a GRD (sold) and a D2... just bought a RD-1..............the XA is pretty quiet, the Bessa R4A is not ........

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Guest malland
Tried this for 4 years with my small sensor digicams already, with no avail so far. Could you point me to a technique giving natural results this way?
That is not something that I do well, but I have seen it done well, for example, by Jeff Spirer on photo.net. I think that this should be easier to do well with LightZone, because of its superior (vector-based) selection tools, than with Photoshop.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Mitch Alland's slideshow on Flickr

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Guest malland

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...The small sensor cameras are more one trick ponies but if you like the look and are shooting B+W it is a perfect solution, smaller and quieter and cheaper. Color however is a different story...
Interesting, but I haven't shot enough colour with digital cameras to address this issue — actually since I shoot almost entirely in RAW format I do see all my shots in colour, but I don't really see them because I am interested only in conversion to B&W. But I've been wanting eventually to try to produce grainy colour the way Harry Gruyaert has in his Rivage series, which I find interesting, on the Magnum site; and this should be possible with small-sensor cameras:

 

Magnum Photos :: Magnum Ad

 

It'll take a whike for the page to load. Under Photographers, click on Harry Gruyaert. Click on Portfolio and you'll be able to see his "Rivages" series. They're beautiful, grainy seascape/horizon pictures.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Mitch Alland's slideshow on Flickr

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Mitch, that is all luminance noise. I don't see *any* colour noise in those shots, and this is typically what makes small sensor images at high ISO look so bad. I wonder how he removed just the colour noise? Do the standard noise solutions do this, like Noise Ninja and the other one, whose name I forget?

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So Hank what is your quiet M8 alternative .....lf we start hitting MF we are going into the realm of visual noise which may be worse than audible shutter noise.........( medium format cameras arouse a fair bit of interest).

mine was a GRD (sold) and a D2... just bought a RD-1..............the XA is pretty quiet, the Bessa R4A is not ........

 

Well the Rollei TLR was the quitest camera I ever owned and the Plaubel which I loved was one of the loudest. The shutter made a huge kerchunk sound like slamming the door of an old Mercedes 600 limo.

 

I'm not that bothered by the M8's sound although I think Leica should sound insulate the next model as there are situations where it is crucial.

 

However, urban ambient noise levels are so high I am rarely in an environment where it would be heard. As the camera always sounds loud to me when it's at my eye I made an experiment the other day. While I was grabbing my morning espresso in the local Argentine meat maeket/cafe I fired a few dozen shots from the hip. I could barely hear the shutter and only because I was firing the shutter. No one standing next to me or serving me heard a thing. I got a bunch of poorly framed crappy shots but I satisfied my curiosity about the shutter sound.

 

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Interesting, but I haven't shot enough colour with digital cameras to address this issue — actually since I shoot almost entirely in RAW format I do see all my shots in colour, but I don't really see them because I am interested only in conversion to B&W. But I've been wanting eventually to try to produce grainy colour the way Harry Gruyaert has in his Rivage series, which I find interesting, on the Magnum site; and this should be possible with small-sensor cameras:

 

Magnum Photos :: Magnum Ad

 

It'll take a whike for the page to load. Under Photographers, click on Harry Gruyaert. Click on Portfolio and you'll be able to see his "Rivages" series. They're beautiful, grainy seascape/horizon pictures.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Mitch Alland's slideshow on Flickr

 

 

I didn't much care for the Rivages photos. The photos seemed a bit flat the grain seemed like a flat screen overlay rather then an integral part of the image on many of the images.

 

The problem with 35mm color on film for me was instead of the high accutance beautiful silver grain of B+W you got mushy dye clouds. Now maybe in digital there are some unexplored possibilities as there are no dye clouds.

 

Here is some 35mm color that was shot when I had film Leica's:

 

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Hank.... did you have a slipped disc.. Why show crap?

 

If you are referring to the cafe snapshots they where merely shown to illustrate the proximity of the people to the sound of the camera. Informational purposes only.

 

If you are referring to the 4 images I posted later. Well I'll just take the crap comment as your critique of my work. I've heard worse :)

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I am writing about the digital stuff, all you have to do is say it.........the pictures say nothing,,,,,,,,,,,,,I bet the result would be different if you composed, then they would see and hear!

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If you want a seriously quiet camera try the Mamiya 7II! The click of the shutter is virtually unhearable and the file quality from this 6x7 cm film body is just incredible. I am not suggesting that all of us want to return to film but if you must shoot in places where shutter noise is truly a problem (e.g. theaters) then this is a real alternative.

 

Woody Spedden

 

 

Well the Rollei TLR was the quitest camera I ever owned and the Plaubel which I loved was one of the loudest. The shutter made a huge kerchunk sound like slamming the door of an old Mercedes 600 limo.

 

I'm not that bothered by the M8's sound although I think Leica should sound insulate the next model as there are situations where it is crucial.

 

However, urban ambient noise levels are so high I am rarely in an environment where it would be heard. As the camera always sounds loud to me when it's at my eye I made an experiment the other day. While I was grabbing my morning espresso in the local Argentine meat maeket/cafe I fired a few dozen shots from the hip. I could barely hear the shutter and only because I was firing the shutter. No one standing next to me or serving me heard a thing. I got a bunch of poorly framed crappy shots but I satisfied my curiosity about the shutter sound.

 

[ATTACH]62911[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]62913[/ATTACH]

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I got my hands on a G9 to play with , I do feel that the files are superior to work with than the GRD as they seem a bit on the neutral side, not as great as the D2s for B&W work but damn impressive......

 

I'm supposed to be seeing one of those for testing soon. I'm curious.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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I got my hands on a G9 to play with , I do feel that the files are superior to work with than the GRD as they seem a bit on the neutral side, not as great as the D2s for B&W work but damn impressive......

I agree on the midtone (especially lower midtone) compression with the GR-D. I don't generally use as much contrast as Mitch and have a more difficult time dealing with it. In a recent exchange with Sean we were talking about the Ricoh as often looking like a thin (underexposed) Tri-X negative. I am slowly learning to print it though, and it requires a particularl approach.

 

I used a G9 for a day, but I felt the interface was very problematic. It was, to the extent that I could understand the camera, essentially impossible to actually use with manual focus. As I remember, every time you touched the shutter button (or fired a shot?), the manual focus setting would return to infinity. These kinds of issues are, of course, the great strength of the GR-D, even more so the new one which is further refined.

 

On the other cameras, what are a D2, 8080 and R1? Are these cameras worth looking at and are they in current production?

 

Walt

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If you want a seriously quiet camera try the Mamiya 7II! The click of the shutter is virtually unhearable......

 

Absolutely the standard to aim for. Many times shooting my Mamiya 7 I was convinced that it was jammed; but only because I couldn't hear the shutter release. But not the complete story - the rewind was loud enough to wake the dead unfortunately.

 

............ Chris

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