Considering selling my SL2-S for an M

[LCM94]

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Hello

I am trying to sell my SL2-S to fund either an M262 / 240MP or an M10. 

The only thing I hate about the SL is its weight, the rest beeing excellent.

I have tried in a Leica Store the M10 & M240 but not enough I would say to be sure this the right move.

I only do stills, street and basically documenting my life, and use manual M lenses. Apart from the rangefinder experience, low iso 'limitations' of the M240 line,  what should also consider and balance to decide?

I think the M262 could be exactly what I need or even an M10 but not sure the extra 1000€ is worth it.

I don't see myself going back to Sony or Fuji or whatever other brand.

Thanks for your help 

 

Edited September 18 by LCM94

[robb]

I would not make the switch based on ibis alone…  if you use longer lenses wide open, that’s another primary reason to keep the sl2-s because of ease of focus.  Great high iso is another. Multishot give you extra ability to print big if you need that every once in adenine for something special like a city scene with lots of detail.   I think sl2-s is my favorite camera out there.  

everybody’s needs are different though.  I loved my mp 240 cameras.  Didn’t like the evf quality.  M10 dimensions are better and I think lighter.

with m lenses, I felt like sl2-s was pretty light, but I came from pro dslr’s with 2.8 zooms which were all VERY heavy.  

Robb

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[01maciel]

A large part of the weight comes from the lens. If you use smaller, manual lenses, you can reduce the weight significantly. So if it's just the weight, you don't have to sell your camera. I own the S1R, when I use the fantastic Sigma 35mm/1.2 on it, I often lose the intention to go out and shoot.

[dpitt]

Just like you, I am documenting my life mostly. I enjoy using a RF so much that I would not want to be without it. So, if I need to chose only one body then it is my M9 camera, or even my M8 if need be. It covers 90% of what I do with some effort and for 75% it is simply the best and most enjoyable tool for the job. It is very compact and portable with the right lenses and the RF gives for me the best shooting experience.

Having said that, I would not want to be without a second system for macro and longer tele. More than 90mm is a stretch, even with a modern M with visoflex EVF. It can be done, but my SL with an R lens is so much better at it.The viewfinder and balance with heavy lenses alone would make me keep it. And then I do not even mention high ISO, extra flexibility like with flash and such, AF, zooms, diopter correction...

A M240 or M10 with EVF could cover a bit more than my M9 and I would get by if I really must, but keeping something like my SL makes it so straightforward and sometimes so much cheaper that I would not want to miss it.

So, by all means, switch to any M and it will probably bring you much joy for almost everything you can do, but be prepared to have a mirrorless (or DSLR) system on the side. In my case, I want my extra system to produce similar IQ and that limits the choices. My Leica SL can match the IQ of my M9. If you have a M10 or M10R, you will probably want something like a SL2-S to rival it.

My advice is to consider if you would want/need a system on the side of an M like I do. And then decide if you could economize on the second system or not to be happy with the results.

[LCM94]

Thanks for your replies so far, any other input is welcomed

Has anyone done the same move eventually?

I will probably save up to get a M262 as their prices are acceptable today, just for the pure joy of simplicity.

I have found 2 ads for a mint M262 (even a stock on ebay brand new) for around 3000€

Edited September 18 by LCM94

[LCM94]

I forgot to mention that I only have Voigtlander M lenses: their new 28mm f/2.8 the 40mm f/1.4 and the APO 50mm f/2. Don’t need anything else. 

[jonnyboy]

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I would say if you using it ONLY for personal stuff I think it can be a reasonable move (considering the M10 prices going down down.). I think you can sell the SL2-S and fund the M10 with few extra $.

If you using the camera for work, stick to your SL2-S. I have both M body and SL2-S, the viewfinder for work is simply a joy to use. Rangefinder has that romantic feeling but ah not the best tool to nail certain jobs!

[Chris Nebard]

The M262 is a lovely camera but I traded in mine for the SL2-s, so I went in the opposite direction to the one you’re considering. It was the right decision for me for a number of reasons: IBIS, great low light capability, autofocus, but (crucially for me) I find it to be outstanding with adapted M lenses - both results wise and user experience. Hands up, I may well be in the minority here, but I prefer the manual focus experience of M lenses on the SL2-s to that of the 2 M cameras I’ve owned.

Using Sigma i-Contemporary prime lenses alongside my M lenses gives me a lot of enjoyment from the system as well - old school aperture ring, light, compact, tactile, and a little more versatility than the M rangefinder. I love street, documentary, candid, travel type stuff and I mainly work with primes between 24mm - 75mm.  

It’s a tough call if you’re hankering after an M, I understand that, and I’m glad I had the M experience for a few years. But, moving to the SL2-s was a really good decision for me. Again, speaking personally, I prefer it.
 

And LCM94,  those Voigtländers of yours must be great on it, surely?  Whichever way you go, enjoy it. There’s no wrong choice really - it’s not the decisions you make, it’s what you make of your decisions that counts.  All the best 👍

[vkdev]

Never do this. as soon as you buy your first leica M, you have one lens. Then the second one. Third. And a second M will appear, a monochrom. Then two more lenses. Next you will want to change the m240 to m11. And buy Q. Congratulations, you now have 4 Leicas that cost more than your car.

But seriously, I wouldn't sell the SL for a while after buying the M. You need to try it and see if the M is for you. Try M10/M10r, M240 is quite an old camera and may disappoint after the SL2s.

[trickness]

I sold my MP- 240 to help fund my SL 601. Always thought I would get a replacement M. But then I got the SL2, and being able to use the EVF to nail focus and exposure is something I just can’t really give up. I primarily use M glass on the camera, and honestly by the time you add a grip and the external EVF to an M body, I don’t think there’s a huge weight difference between the two cameras. 
 

I think this really just comes down to what you’re going to enjoy using more. For me, the M has no technical advantage going for it vs the SL - it’s about the experience of shooting a rangefinder, and having something that is smaller in the hand. If that’s your thing, go for it! M’s are very special cameras. But for me, the SL is a partner that makes it a lot easier to create images that I want to create. 

[lencap]

You're in the same position as many of us, including me.  I've owned several M cameras over the years, both digital (M9) and film (M7, M-A, M-P), along with the Q (Type 116), as well as the SL 601 and now the SL2-S.  There are many opinions about which is best and why, but the bottom line is that the M line is what made Leica famous, and the desire to own one is understandable, and likely inevitable.  So, if you want one, get one - you'll be joining a long line of owners, and the camera is unique. 

My progression was typical of some, but not unique.  I had the M bodies, and enjoyed the rangefinder experience, but frankly as a photographic tool to take pictures of fast moving children/grandchildren it wasn't the best tool.  It also required periodic maintenance (aligning the finder), and in some lighting conditions getting a good view of the finder field was challenging.  

As I aged getting critical focus was an issue (your F/1.4 lens is a 35mm, it may not be as critical, but to get the full bokeh benefit precise focus is very important), and I moved to the Q - a single fixed lens, full frame camera with a lens that was a clone of the M bodied lenses - distance markings, depth of field, hypercritical focus: everything I loved on the M.  The problem was the 28mm focal length as the only option.  It just didn't work for many of the candid family shots I wanted to take. 

The next step was the SL line.  The SL 601 was "the next new thing" when it came out, and was priced at $7,500, if I recall correctly.  Lens selection on launch was the Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90 F/2.8-4.0 ASPH Zoom.  Having shot Nikon F3 and other "pro" film cameras with long lenses the weight didn't initially bother me, especially since the zoom provided the equivalent of 6 Prime lens focal lengths and I could take any shot I wanted without changing lenses.  And that went well until the honeymoon ended and I realized that carrying a big rig was a lot less fun for casual shooting.  I sold everything at that point - the SL, the lens, and the Q, and tried a Nikon Z kit.  

On paper the camera is wonderful, and the lenses are incredible value.  They are capable tools, and the various Z bodies provide a wide range of capabilities.  But, in the end, the camera is Nikon, not a Leica, and that bothered me.

And that brings me to today.  I recently bought the SL2-S bundled with the newly released Summicron-SL 50mm F/2.0 ASPH lens, which Leica offers at a considerable bundled price savings.  

So, why am I writing this long post?  Because I learned a lot on my Leica journey.  There is a mystique surrounding Leica that has been carefully crafted for 100 years.  That mystique has been earned - the 35mm Leica was unique and created some of the most iconic images of all time.  It was also "THE" reporter camera - small/high quality, flexible, and bulletproof in actual use.  It had no competition.  Leica markets that perception very well, and frankly they should - nothing really competes.  I regret selling my M gear.  It's a bit like golf - you may be a 17 handicap, but when you hit a great shot you remember the feeling it gave you.  That's the Leica M - you'll take one marvelous shot and feel like Henri Cartier-Bresson.  If that's what you're seeking, NOTHING else will scratch that itch but a Leica M.  Get what you want, and enjoy it.  You'll eventually get Leica lenses, just because.  And you'll possibly fall in and out of love with your M cameras - kind of like dating a cheerleader - lots of upside, but lots of upkeep and challenges!  

In terms of image creation and technical ability, I think the SL line of cameras offers more pure image creation potential than any other line they have, including the S.  In fact, I'd be surprised if the Leica M13 or so doesn't include some form of electronic viewfinder - it seems inevitable with the external viewfinders looking like "add-ons", and with 60MP sensors you need to focus the Noctilux lenses accurately.  The autofocus L mount lenses may be heavy, but the APO line is demonstrably among the finest lenses ever made with MTF charts that almost look like straight lines, and micro-contrast that is among the best.  

My guess is that you'll ask that question a lot, especially given your initial comments:  "The only thing I hate is the weight, the rest being excellent".    Here's a comparison of the SL2-S and Leica M240: https://camerasize.com/compare/#866,389

The SL2-S is 6 OUNCES heavier, 0.28 INCHES wider, and 1" taller than the M (almost all of it the EVF - and if you add the optional EVF to the M240 they are almost identical in size).  That's not a lot of real difference, but it can feel that way since the SL bodies are built to last forever and can be used as hammers in an emergency.  I won't argue the technical/size differences, but they are a lot more impactful than the actual measurements.

BUT, and this is the crux of the issue: Does it matter?  Does technical excellence drive the desire to own a SL instead of a M?  No, it doesn't for many owners.  That's why some people prefer records to digital files, or film to digital, or black/white to color.  Photography is an ART, as well as science.  And I've yet to find a way to quantify art.  How often will you actually take advantage of the sharpness/contrast that the L mount lenses offer?  Probably a few times a year.  How often when you take your camera out to shoot will you ask yourself: "Why don't I have a M?"  

So, go get your M and be happy.  If you find it isn't for you, there will always be someone who will buy it, and that's not likely to ever change.

 

 

Edited September 19 by lencap

[tritentrue]

A couple of weeks ago I ditched my SL2 and L-mount lenses to change back to M.  First choice was M10-R, which I couldn't find locally.   So I settled for an M10 for the moment while I continue to wait for an M10-R to turn up.  

The main reason for the switch was to be able to use another brand for chasing birds and the M system for shooting short (<=135mm).  No technical reason for using M; I just like the aesthetics, simplicity, and image quality. 

Follow your whim.

[LCM94]

Thanks all for your extended replies and intimate feelings. I guess the best choice would be to own both and see along the way if I need the 2. Both hold their values pretty well anyway.

 

Edited September 19 by LCM94

[LCM94]

7 hours ago, tritentrue said:

A couple of weeks ago I ditched my SL2 and L-mount lenses to change back to M.  First choice was M10-R, which I couldn't find locally.   So I settled for an M10 for the moment while I continue to wait for an M10-R to turn up.  

The main reason for the switch was to be able to use another brand for chasing birds and the M system for shooting short (<=135mm).  No technical reason for using M; I just like the aesthetics, simplicity, and image quality. 

Follow your whim.

try looking here 

Edited September 19 by LCM94

[LCM94]

12 hours ago, Chris Nebard said:

And LCM94,  those Voigtländers of yours must be great on it, surely?  Whichever way you go, enjoy it. There’s no wrong choice really - it’s not the decisions you make, it’s what you make of your decisions that counts.  All the best 👍

Yes, the reason I chose Voigtlander is because they are the best thing next to Leica lenses for much more less money. Their new 2023 28mm f/2.8 is close to providing the same results as the 28mm f/2 ultron in an even smaller package, and the 50 APO 😍, the best lens they ever created (as they say).

Edited September 19 by LCM94

[LCM94]

I am also considering the Pixii camera btw 🙃

Edited September 20 by LCM94

[hellobrandonscott]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:10 AM, 01maciel said:

A large part of the weight comes from the lens. If you use smaller, manual lenses, you can reduce the weight significantly. So if it's just the weight, you don't have to sell your camera. I own the S1R, when I use the fantastic Sigma 35mm/1.2 on it, I often lose the intention to go out and shoot.

Super true. I have all the SL APO lenses except for the 50, and was considering getting the 50 Summicron-SL but ended up getting the 50 Summilux-M. WOW. What a weight difference compared to all the other SL lenses. Kind of makes me want to switch them all out for their M counterparts but need AF for the others. 

[jplomley]

11 hours ago, hellobrandonscott said:

Super true. I have all the SL APO lenses except for the 50, and was considering getting the 50 Summicron-SL but ended up getting the 50 Summilux-M. WOW. What a weight difference compared to all the other SL lenses. Kind of makes me want to switch them all out for their M counterparts but need AF for the others. 

Brandon, I recently tried the 28 APO SC and found the corners lacking compared to the 35 APO SC, even stopped down to f/5.6. Perhaps it was just that copy of the lens, but I found the 35 APO the better performer with regards to edge-to-edge resolution and corner performance at similar apertures. Has that been your experience as well?

[MFT-Lehrling]

Am 18.9.2023 um 16:21 schrieb LCM94:

I only do stills, street and basically documenting my life

I wouldn't buy an M240/m262 today, especially if you already have an SL2S. You can only be disappointed. Especially the menu, JPEG, AWB, EVF, all points that seem antique in addition to those already mentioned.

The M10 is a little better (size, ISO, liveview lag, EVF), but for my taste the small battery, the old menu and the few options for JPEG is not that great either. But it is smaller and not such a hulk as the M240 (does not have to be negative, some like that).

-->If M=M10

Another Thought:

Have you ever thought about a Q/Q2?
The menu, operating concept and result are much more similar to an SL2  (Q2). You don't have to think about the limitations of the M. (close-up distance, poor live view, JPEG, ISO, ....).

Was actually my first thought when I read your field of application.

--> I would first test the Q2, especially in Europe there are good offers on the second-hand market from people who switch to the Q3. Its a perfect synergy to the SL2S. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[2M6TTLs]

I have the SL2s and I hike with it for hours. I've done the same with M cameras and they really aren't that much lighter in practice despite the numbers on paper.

The feel of an M in your hand and operation is quite different from an SL body and you'll lose that huge, clear viewfinder and some versatility. Get the right bag or strap to distribute the weight and you'd probably be fine.