robertwright Posted November 16, 2007 Share #41 Posted November 16, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's clear that whatever option is chosen, some people are not going to like it... amen to that. time to bring in the lobbyists! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 16, 2007 Posted November 16, 2007 Hi robertwright, Take a look here Different perspective on EV, ISO, Compensation (Mark's posts merged). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
chris_tribble Posted November 16, 2007 Share #42 Posted November 16, 2007 I'm interested in such enhancements but I think using the Protect button will confuse things. The button function is engraved in the casting so that is not about to be changed. Instead, I think you should be able to press and hold the set button and then use the arrow buttons to bump the ISO up and down (say, using the vertical buttons) and bump the EV up and down by one increment (using the horizontal buttons). When you release the set button, it should return to shooting mode. I don't think the WB is nearly as important. Sean - although I am with you in spirit from extensive use of the camera, I really do endorse Mark Norton's position. I have two bodies and have hardly ever bothered with changing white balance as I'm much happier doing it in post. When I know the light's going to be tough I just shoot a reference WhiBal card and use that to set WB later. My vote would go for Mark's suggestion (and I'd STILL love to have the shhhhh quiet mode - much more useful for me than multi-shot which I never use). More strength to your elbow though... Best Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted November 16, 2007 Share #43 Posted November 16, 2007 Mitcho Inakov brings up a great suggestion in the poll thread-non of the settings are visible when you turn the camera on-he suggests that the display come on briefly to show ISO, EV, Wb etc. 2-3 seconds max. This is a subtle change that is a good one. In addition, I would say that if auto-review is turned off, IOW, you don't want the camera lighting up for whatever reasons, stealth, etc, that this would not happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted November 16, 2007 Share #44 Posted November 16, 2007 Mitcho Inakov brings up a great suggestion in the poll thread-non of the settings are visible when you turn the camera on-he suggests that the display come on briefly to show ISO, EV, Wb etc. 2-3 seconds max. This is a subtle change that is a good one. In addition, I would say that if auto-review is turned off, IOW, you don't want the camera lighting up for whatever reasons, stealth, etc, that this would not happen. I do not agree with the suggestion. I want my camera waking up with a black LCD. If I want to see the settings, I can pull them up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted November 16, 2007 Share #45 Posted November 16, 2007 Robert, I like your suggestion and I have another request which would help a lot:I would like to see the exposure time even when I use manual exposure. Tom - couldn't agree more. It would be SO helpful in difficult light if shutter speed was still available in the viewfinder - I'd use M so much more. Best C: Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 17, 2007 Share #46 Posted November 17, 2007 Sean - although I am with you in spirit from extensive use of the camera, I really do endorse Mark Norton's position. I have two bodies and have hardly ever bothered with changing white balance as I'm much happier doing it in post. When I know the light's going to be tough I just shoot a reference WhiBal card and use that to set WB later. My vote would go for Mark's suggestion (and I'd STILL love to have the shhhhh quiet mode - much more useful for me than multi-shot which I never use). More strength to your elbow though... Best Hi Chris, OK, but there's a different thread going to discuss those ideas. Please jump into that if you haven't already. This thread is purely for survey responses. Thanks to everyone who's staying on topic. The two questions are: 1) How interested are you in the system I propose in post # 1 of this thread? 2) Are you a current, or prospective, M8 owner? Thanks, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 17, 2007 Share #47 Posted November 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I support Sean's suggestions too. However, I also agree with Mark: I prefer the M8 to stay as simple to use as possible and I would like any solution to respect the spirit of the camera, i.e. no need to read the manual. Let's discuss that aspect in the other "non survey" thread, which is: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38711-different-perspective-ev-iso-compensation-2.html#post405970 Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 17, 2007 Share #48 Posted November 17, 2007 It's clear that whatever option is chosen, some people are not going to like it... Exactly...I was just thinking the same thing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted November 17, 2007 Share #49 Posted November 17, 2007 The survey thread presents some good suggestions for addressing a key design issue. I'm still a prospective purchaser and don't feel that I should vote, but I want to share my perspective here. Before the M8 was introduced, I was determined to buy a digital M if it ever became a reality. My Canon gear performed well, but I was intrigued by the prospect of a small high quality RF digital. For most of my work, I need to be unobtrusive and don't want to carry too much gear. I thought it would fit perfectly with the way I work. When the M8 became a reality I held off on purchasing one, partly because of the initial problems, and partly because of the design itself. The implementation of the exposure compensation and ISO adjustment methods was a key disappointment, among some others. I adjust exposure compensation (and ISO) many, many, many times in a day when shooting, so the need to look at a menu and make 4 clicks was a significant turnoff. Canon's implementation (on their DSLRs) of exposure compensation is simple in the extreme: a touch of the shutter button, then a turn of the thumb wheel and done! It just couldn't be simpler. And, the change appears in the viewfinder. My finger is already on the shutter button; my thumb is already on the wheel; my eye is already on the viewfinder. It works simply and beautifully. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted November 17, 2007 Share #50 Posted November 17, 2007 it is absolutely applied in both cases. By applied I mean in Av the physical exposure is changed in camera and in M the diode reading is altered. Physical exposure is not changed unless you react to the altered diode settings and set the camera to what they now recommend. correct, the stupidity of this being that Leica thought it important enough to include 1/3rd of a stop exposure control, but not if you use manual exposure control. Do I rally have to buy Zeiss lenses to get the same control in manual as in auto!? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted November 17, 2007 Share #51 Posted November 17, 2007 That's a good proposal as well. I tried a "dry run through" with it just now and my only concern with it is that its alkward to get to the set button when the camera is up to one's eye. My idea was to have a system that one could change by feel alone without ever needing to move the camera from his eye or his shutter finger off the shutter. That works with the design I put out there. So long as one knows what ISO and EV setting he or she is starting at, the eye never needs to leave the finder, the index finger can stay over the shutter release and the thumb can do all the ISO/EV work. WB would require moving one's eye from the finder but that's probably the least important setting of the three (for many of us). Last summer, I sat and discussed this proposal with Leica (various USA and Germany folks) and we agreed that it would be hard to accidentally trigger a change as designed. The timeout (one second) is a good safety. Again, this does not yet exist in production firmware. Cheers, Sean Sean, getting timeout functions right can be tricky, and if I understand correctly you not proposing to switch the lcd on during this process? So how do you know if the timeout has timed out or not? Bearing in mind that info about iso, ev and wb are only available via the lcd, the new proposal appears to make it possible to change setting with no visual confrmation, subject to a time window which also has no visual confirmation. From a machine interface point of view being able to change settings without confirmation is a risky route to go. Using the set button to lock settings in (as currently) and turning the lcd on while making changes (as currently) could mitigate the above risks. As I have said before, sometime in the future cameras will be user programmable via software and a USB cable (ala nikon F5), it will be possible to make everything user selectable, yet keep the camera interface simple. I cant wait! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjt1 Posted November 17, 2007 Share #52 Posted November 17, 2007 I dont know if this is the right place for this, so apologies if this drags the thread off topic. Two changes I would like to see to the FW in addition to Mr Reids excellent ideas are as follows... Make the delete button programmable in the same way as proposed for the protect button. I never use the delete button, and I would like to see it put to greater use. Also, I dont like the idea of a delete function so readily accessible. I could easily press it by accident. I have a few memory cards and they are cheap, so I can shoot all day and I prefer to do deletion on the computer. If the delete button was programmable as well we could have one button for ISO and one for EV (or WB etc). If peolple want a delete option in the camera, put it in the menu accessible by the set button. Make the user profile 0 - jpeg fine - deletable. I accidently put this on the other day (dont ask me how) and I ended up with a few jpegs (ugh) when I wanted DNGs. It was my own stupid fault, but I would rather have this profile not quite so accessible. One final comment - I do like Mr Reid's idea of using the shutter release button to confirm settings. If we were changing ISO, could the viewfinder display show us the settings as we scrolled through them so we could do this without taking the camera from the eye? Cheers Steve Taylor Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 17, 2007 Share #53 Posted November 17, 2007 Sean, getting timeout functions right can be tricky, and if I understand correctly you not proposing to switch the lcd on during this process? The LCD must come on to see one's settings so, of course, it would come on during this process. But...one would not have to look at it at all if he or she were familiar with the camera and knew what his or her starting points were for EV and ISO. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 17, 2007 Share #54 Posted November 17, 2007 . If we were changing ISO, could the viewfinder display show us the settings as we scrolled through them so we could do this without taking the camera from the eye?Steve Taylor Hi Steve, I'm only looking at changes that can be done with firmware. Displaying the ISO in the finder would be a manufacturing change. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted November 17, 2007 Share #55 Posted November 17, 2007 The LCD must come on to see one's settings so, of course, it would come on during this process. OK, agreed But...one would not have to look at it at all if he or she were familiar with the camera and knew what his or her starting points were for EV and ISO. err, not if using the wheel as robert suggests, at least not if it behaves as it does during zoom mode (ie turning clockwise results in zooming out on a random basis). As for knowing where you are if you know where you start from, if that works for you ok, I know I would quickly get in a pickle.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 17, 2007 Share #56 Posted November 17, 2007 err, not if using the wheel as robert suggests, at least not if it behaves as it does during zoom mode (ie turning clockwise results in zooming out on a random basis). As for knowing where you are if you know where you start from, if that works for you ok, I know I would quickly get in a pickle.... I'm talking about the design I've been discussing with Leica since last year - feel but not wheel. <G> As to the latter, its just like adjusting shutter speed by feel -- some are comfortable doing that and some are not. Pickle prevention, or pickle precaution, would come in the form of looking at the LCD as needed. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted November 17, 2007 Share #57 Posted November 17, 2007 Personally I would rather Leica got the camera to work as intended rather than spending time trying to add new functionality. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted November 17, 2007 Share #58 Posted November 17, 2007 ....Make the delete button programmable in the same way as proposed for the protect button. I never use the delete button, and I would like to see it put to greater use. Also, I dont like the idea of a delete function so readily accessible. I could easily press it by accident. .... Steve - Programmable? Well OK, if that's what you or others would prefer, but I use the delete button all the time as an important part of my editing process, and for me the delete function works very well and has to be a button process, not one buried in the menu. I don't understand your concern about accidental deletion; it's a two button procedure - press the delete button, and press the 'set' button to actually delete. I really don't have any concerns about accidental deletion with a two button procedure. ...................... Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted November 17, 2007 Share #59 Posted November 17, 2007 I agree, I have no problem with the delete button and use it quite a lot. The electronic system of the M8 has a nice simplicity, part of being a Leica I think. I would not like to see it going down the path of the DSLRs. As I said first things first. Write FW to get the camera operating as intended before attempting to add functionality that strictly is not necessary. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 17, 2007 Share #60 Posted November 17, 2007 Personally I would rather Leica got the camera to work as intended rather than spending time trying to add new functionality. Jeff Its not either/or. I'm always puzzled when I hear things posed that way. Leica is capable of simultaneous work. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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