Different perspective on EV, ISO, Compensation (Mark's posts merged)

[sean_reid]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I think it's wrong to consider using the Protect and Arrow keys to initiate change in this way - to keep the user interface clean and unambiguous, all access to these functions should be through the SET key.

 

Notice how the menu only appears when you release the SET key, not when you press it. There is therefore a machine state available while the SET key is held depressed which is not currently used.

 

That's why I favour pressing and holding the SET key, then using one of the four arrow keys to nudge the setting you want in the required direction with the new setting being displayed after you press an arrow key.

 

Try it, you'll like it.

 

Please start another thread on this, then, as Robert Wright had the courtesy to do.

 

Thank you to everyone who has respected my repeated requests to keep this thread directly on topic - as a survey with two questions. They are again:

 

1) How interested would you be in the changes described in the first post on this thread?

2) Are you a prospective, or current, owner of an M8?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

This PDF describes how I would like to see the fast access to ISO and EV implemented.

 

[ATTACH]61758[/ATTACH]

 

Mark,

 

Start a new thread or maybe add your post to this thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38711-different-perspective-ev-iso-compensation.html which is not a survey.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[sean_reid]

another idea: some people are concerned with the unintended or accidental change because the buttons are exposed-

 

proposal: adopt what Sean is talking about (I'll eat my hat, but ok:)) and use the wheel not the up down buttons to make the changes. That way, bumping the camera is not going to alter anything. People with meat gloves for hands are on their own here:) why the heck are you using such a small camera:)!

 

So it would be left button for Ev, right button for Iso or whichever and the wheel for setting, and I guess confirm by hitting the shutter button....

 

protect for wb and wheel to change., shutter to confirm.

 

I can live with that I guess.

 

If the process automatically times out after a second or two I can't see how one could accidentally change settings. The advantage of the button set up is that it could all be done without looking. ie: If one is at ISO 160 then going to 640 would be:

 

Tap right arrow key once

Tap up arrow key twice

Press shutter release lightly

 

One wouldn't even need to take his or her eyes off the finder.

 

By timing out I mean that if one did not press either the set button or shutter release within, say, a second, after selecting a new setting, no changes are made.

 

Of course, these changes don't yet exist in production firmware.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[marknorton]

Please start another thread on this, then, as Robert Wright had the courtesy to do.

 

Thank you to everyone who has respected my repeated requests to keep this thread directly on topic - as a survey with two questions. They are again:

 

1) How interested would you be in the changes described in the first post on this thread?

2) Are you a prospective, or current, owner of an M8?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I agree with the need for faster access to the ISO and EV functions, but not with the implementation detail you describe. There is, after all, more than one way to skin this particular cat.

 

Oh, and in case you didn't know, I'm a current owner of an M8. Or three.

[isaac]

Hello Robert!

tom: you are making my point, I drop out of Av into manual just in these kinds of circumstances, making Av less useful. the advantage of Av is that you do see the speed in the viewfinder, if you could roll the wheel it would help keep your eye to the viewfinder more. You do have to look at the screen to check yourself tho.

Either I misunderstand your point of view completely or you make your world more complicated than it should be :-)

If you are using Av mode (the one and only automatic mode), look throu the finder, well than you can watch the exposure time. Now you decide - I hope so, because if this is not so, my misunderstanding is evident - that you want to have a shorter or longer exposure time, in any case an other value than M8 will use.

And now my point of view: move the finder, till the exposuretime matches your forseen value and hit the trigger softly, reorder the finder to the scene you want and ... fully hit the trigger.

Well, this is not a good idea, if useing a tripod, but in that case you have time enough to use the build in exposure compensation as designed.

I use this methode since I have used my Rollei 35 LED and it works also with my M8. Of course, it will not work satisfactory, if exposure lock is combined with (auto) focus lock, but we speak about an M8 :-) so I think, comparison with a C... brand DSLR is not so senseful (at least for me - as a 5D owner).

[marknorton]

The issue of accidental setting is one reason why I propose using the set button with your left thumb and the arrow keys with your right and it's one less action that Sean's solution.

 

Here's my scheme...

 

Leica M8 Fast ISO+EV Change.pdf

[sean_reid]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I agree with the need for faster access to the ISO and EV functions, but not with the implementation detail you describe. There is, after all, more than one way to skin this particular cat.

 

Oh, and in case you didn't know, I'm a current owner of an M8. Or three.

 

OK, thank you. I'm sure that it would be interesting to look at your idea as well and I hope you post the link in another thread (maybe Robert's) so that it can be discussed there.

[sean_reid]

The issue of accidental setting is one reason why I propose using the set button with your left thumb and the arrow keys with your right and it's one less action that Sean's solution.

 

Here's my scheme...

 

[ATTACH]61769[/ATTACH]

 

That's a good proposal as well. I tried a "dry run through" with it just now and my only concern with it is that its alkward to get to the set button when the camera is up to one's eye. My idea was to have a system that one could change by feel alone without ever needing to move the camera from his eye or his shutter finger off the shutter. That works with the design I put out there. So long as one knows what ISO and EV setting he or she is starting at, the eye never needs to leave the finder, the index finger can stay over the shutter release and the thumb can do all the ISO/EV work. WB would require moving one's eye from the finder but that's probably the least important setting of the three (for many of us).

 

Last summer, I sat and discussed this proposal with Leica (various USA and Germany folks) and we agreed that it would be hard to accidentally trigger a change as designed. The timeout (one second) is a good safety. Again, this does not yet exist in production firmware.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

This thread is for the survey responses but there's now a good discussion about design variations going on at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38711-different-perspective-ev-iso-compensation.html#post405627

 

It's worth looking at, I think.

 

Meanwhile, please tell your M8 friends about this thread and let them weigh in if interested. I want to start discussing this again with Leica next week. While they may not always get changes out with lighting speed, they do listen.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[robertwright]

ok I just had a revelation and we can forget most of what I have said above...

 

Harald tipped me off to it, he reminded me of the exposure lock function. Then I realized that my use of the control wheel in Canon dslr's comes from the fact that I never have separated focus lock from exposure lock as many pros do. So I would be in Av or Program and not liking the exposure, and using the control wheel to add or subtract EV. I think what other people do is use the shutter to lock exposure from an appropriate part of the scene and use the back focus button to set focus. I never learned how to do this:eek:

 

but do want to address an issue in Sean's proposal, the use of the arrow keys to activate EV and ISO, I think haptically this is not good, you have a symmetrical input system L/R which is the kind of thing to contribute to errors. IOW, quickly, is it L or R to set ISO-you see what I mean.

 

I think Mark's scheme is equally problematic, you are creating bilateral choice, is it up/down or left/right for ISO-these things can get turned around in our heads easily when shooting.

 

A lot of this is because there is no dedicated ISO button-only Nikon has a dedicated button. You would think that Leica being the most "old school" would have followed Nikon's lead and given us a dedicated ISO button. Then this discussion would be moot. Alas.

 

So what is the essential problem, iow, are we reinventing the wheel and for what reason? Everyone wants to keep the camera simple, that is it's charm and strength. We find the menu's somewhat nested and cumbersome. I agree, I have three camera presets that I use 99% of the time to keep it simple.

 

(edit--let me take this whole bit off, it makes it two handed...)

 

(While we would all like access to EV and ISO, and some WB, I think maybe we should pick one function to be able to assign to the Protect button-ISO seems most useful, and use Mark's scheme where you press and hold Protect, and then you can use arrow keys or the wheel to set. Releasing the Protect accepts the choice.

 

I still would like my idea of a custom function to make Av bias-able via the control wheel in a +/- fashion, because I think it is a good idea.--edit--let me take this out too)

 

Is this better or worse?

[robertwright]

That's a good proposal as well. I tried a "dry run through" with it just now and my only concern with it is that its alkward to get to the set button when the camera is up to one's eye. My idea was to have a system that one could change by feel alone without ever needing to move the camera from his eye or his shutter finger off the shutter. That works with the design I put out there. So long as one knows what ISO and EV setting he or she is starting at, the eye never needs to leave the finder, the index finger can stay over the shutter release and the thumb can do all the ISO/EV work. WB would require moving one's eye from the finder but that's probably the least important setting of the three (for many of us).

 

Last summer, I sat and discussed this proposal with Leica (various USA and Germany folks) and we agreed that it would be hard to accidentally trigger a change as designed. The timeout (one second) is a good safety. Again, this does not yet exist in production firmware.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

well I am warming to the idea, the use of one hand instead of two seems important to me also, the left hand is focusing primarily and providing stability.

I just am worried about assigning ISO and EV to these bilateral inputs, it seems a recipe for disaster.

 

I think the issues are then-one hand or two? and both EV/ISO or just one for safety? and which is more important, ISO or EV on the fly?

 

my votes are coming to one hand, EV only and EV is more important. If I want to change ISO make it conscious. EV is running on the fly.

[charlesphoto99]

So can anyone answer the question if the EV setting is applied universally in both manual and auto? My body is at Solms, but I recall the EV setting working for me in manual.

[robertwright]

So can anyone answer the question if the EV setting is applied universally in both manual and auto? My body is at Solms, but I recall the EV setting working for me in manual.

 

it is absolutely applied in both cases. By applied I mean in Av the physical exposure is changed in camera and in M the diode reading is altered. Physical exposure is not changed unless you react to the altered diode settings and set the camera to what they now recommend.

[dlw]

I think being able to do things with one hand is the key. The current method requires two and while I am able (from years of playing video games no doubt) to move through the menus with some speed, just dropping the last "set" press and instead half-hitting the shutter would seem to make things flow much faster and let me get the camera back in position.

 

I am able to change a roll of film without breaking stride - I'm looking for a solution that improves on that type of ergonomics - being able to keep the camera in action as much as possible, and I think that requires doing as much as possible with one hand and as little looking at the LCD as absolutely necessary.

 

In this discussion I've been thinking a lot about the last time I shot a roll of film, I didn't think about EV or ISO, just the exposure and the aperture - I'd like to achieve that level of simplicity and that level of consistency. I think the basic design of the camera as it is today is well on the path to that goal, but like others, I think the "protect" button is not useful and I look forward to being able to assign a shortcut to it for quicker access to the exposure options that are an important part of using a digital camera so to reduce the amount of time adjusting the tool and maximize the amount of time using the tool.

 

- David

[jaapv]

it is absolutely applied in both cases. By applied I mean in Av the physical exposure is changed in camera and in M the diode reading is altered. Physical exposure is not changed unless you react to the altered diode settings and set the camera to what they now recommend.

 

So the thing I do when not able to find the right exposure in AE (or unwilling to;) ) is simply turn the shutterspeed dial, "read" the triangles and count the clicks... That has been the Leica M way since the M6....

The only thing I use EV comp for is in one user menu, for evening shots where it is set to -1 to compensate for the highlights.

[benkelley]

Everybody throwing in their ideas. This is fun! Here's mine:

 

1 - go with Sean's idea. It is simpler & quicker than the menu system, and I think many folks will get used to it quickly. But, give a menu option to turn it off.

 

2 - allow different profiles to assign one variable to change with the scroll wheel. none, iso, ev, wb. then just spin the scroll wheel to change the variable. you could have the occasional accidental bump, but the detents are pretty good. you could also confirm with a tap on the shutter release. i wish there was a way to have both iso and ev comp. accessible at the same time, but this, i think, could be a very good, simple solution, easily workable with one hand.

 

ben

[hankg]

Hello Robert!

 

And now my point of view: move the finder, till the exposuretime matches your forseen value and hit the trigger softly, reorder the finder to the scene you want and ... fully hit the trigger.

 

That is much to slow. If you are trying to nail an expression or a moving scene. You don't have time to go searching for something to point the camera at that will move the exposure the amount that you want. If you are aiming at something in the shadow or in the brightest part of a scene and you know you want 2 stops more or less you need to be able to get that instantly. I like the wheel idea as you can dial through several 1/3 stop clicks very rapidly.

 

The global EV setting I use to 'correct' the meter to my liking -that stays pretty much unchanged for a particular ISO setting. However on the fly compensation is something different and is specific to the scene and how you want to expose that particular frame. If I'm taking a frame of a Black women in a black brocade dress in the shadows I am going to make a different adjustment then for a fair skinned blond in white lace in full sun. You can also fire off a couple of exposures bracketed in different ways.

 

This was a feature I used constantly when shooting available light with the Canons.

 

I would not want to have to hit a button along with the wheel as the camera already has nothing to hang on to and having to get the thumbs of both hands back there would be very unstable. You could turn the feature on and off via a menu preference. AV or AV + EV. I'd have a choice for setting ISO preferences as well. Button plus arrow or AV + EV + ISO -making the wheel and arrows live whenever in AV mode.

[robertwright]

That is much to slow. If you are trying to nail an expression or a moving scene. You don't have time to go searching for something to point the camera at that will move the exposure the amount that you want. If you are aiming at something in the shadow or in the brightest part of a scene and you know you want 2 stops more or less you need to be able to get that instantly. I like the wheel idea as you can dial through several 1/3 stop clicks very rapidly.

 

The global EV setting I use to 'correct' the meter to my liking -that stays pretty much unchanged for a particular ISO setting. However on the fly compensation is something different and is specific to the scene and how you want to expose that particular frame. If I'm taking a frame of a Black women in a black brocade dress in the shadows I am going to make a different adjustment then for a fair skinned blond in white lace in full sun. You can also fire off a couple of exposures bracketed in different ways.

 

This was a feature I used constantly when shooting available light with the Canons.

 

I would not want to have to hit a button along with the wheel as the camera already has nothing to hang on to and having to get the thumbs of both hands back there would be very unstable. You could turn the feature on and off via a menu preference. AV or AV + EV. I'd have a choice for setting ISO preferences as well. Button plus arrow or AV + EV + ISO -making the wheel and arrows live whenever in AV mode.

 

well I believe either my suggestion or Sean's would get you there. Both are one-handed. I guess it remains whether or not people like buttons or the wheel. I guess both work. Mark's idea is a two-hander so is not going to work for you.

I am still worried about the bilateral issue of ISO and EV available in this mode. Methinks it is too much customization...Can we pick one?

[marknorton]

It's clear that whatever option is chosen, some people are not going to like it...

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[hankg]

It's clear that whatever option is chosen, some people are not going to like it...

 

I'll be happy if it's implemented -however it's implemented. There is more then one way to skin a cat and any of the suggestions is workable. You will never get unanimous agreement on what's the best option.