Different perspective on EV, ISO, Compensation (Mark's posts merged)

[scott kirkpatrick]

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Apologies for this thread appearing to start mid flow. Scroll to the bottom, and my explanation will be clear.

 

 

I agree with I and would even generalize it. A light press on the shutter while any setting dialog is in progress should confirm whatever is showing and return the camera to shooting mode. This include lens focal length setting (for the WATE), where at present the shutter button causes a changed focal length to be ignored. It could also be useful in speeding up confirmation of things deeper in the menu, like WB selection, etc.

 

II is nice, but needs more description, I suspect, for Leica to get excited about such an open-ended suggestion.

 

III makes sense to me, but falls below I in my personal priorities.

 

This is a good time for this thread. Testing or some other inevitable difficulty in the firmware development seems to be taking much longer than hoped-for.

 

cheers,

 

scott

 

(credentials): Have purchased M8 and four current generation lenses since Dec 2006. Will probably acquire a second body at some point.

[sean_reid]

I agree with I and would even generalize it. A light press on the shutter while any setting dialog is in progress should confirm whatever is showing and return the camera to shooting mode. This include lens focal length setting (for the WATE), where at present the shutter button causes a changed focal length to be ignored. It could also be useful in speeding up confirmation of things deeper in the menu, like WB selection, etc.

 

II is nice, but needs more description, I suspect, for Leica to get excited about such an open-ended suggestion.

 

III makes sense to me, but falls below I in my personal priorities.

 

This is a good time for this thread. Testing or some other inevitable difficulty in the firmware development seems to be taking much longer than hoped-for.

 

cheers,

 

scott

 

(credentials): Have purchased M8 and four current generation lenses since Dec 2006. Will probably acquire a second body at some point.

 

Hi Scott,

 

Could you edit your post please and put it into another thread. Otherwise, we're off topic already.

 

Thanks,

 

Sean

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[marknorton]

I'm interested in such enhancements but I think using the Protect button will confuse things. The button function is engraved in the casting so that is not about to be changed.

 

Instead, I think you should be able to press and hold the set button and then use the arrow buttons to bump the ISO up and down (say, using the vertical buttons) and bump the EV up and down by one increment (using the horizontal buttons).

 

When you release the set button, it should return to shooting mode.

 

I don't think the WB is nearly as important.

[sean_reid]

Thanks again for the comments. For the alternative ideas, maybe those interested can start a thread called "alternative ideas for EV, etc. shortcuts" or something like that. What I mostly need here is a sense of how many people are interested in this specific set of firmware changes. I have reasons for that specificity which I cannot discuss.

 

*This thread has the most potential for being effective if posts stay right on topic. We have the whole wide forum to branch into related topics so please don't do that here right now. Thanks."

 

So, again....Would you value these specific changes (see post 1) and are you a current or prospective M8 owner?

 

Time to get this off the backburner if that is possible.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[marknorton]

Currently, changing the ISO or EV takes a minimum of 5 button presses, including dismissing the menu, and assuming the sub menu is already selected.

 

Sean's method takes 3, mine takes 2, both worst case.

 

It would also be possible to display something in the viewfinder such as "-E-" or "-I-" when such a change is made. Not possible to display a "V" or "+".

[carlmuck]

Me too, would like to see these features in a "pro mode" selected from the menu.

 

My preference would be (all assuming LCD is blank):

 

move wheel = increase/decrease ISO

Up/Down arrows = Increase/Decrease EV

left/right arrows = cycle through WB modes, if "Manual WB" is selected then firing shutter creates sample.

 

In all cases (except "Manual WB") activation of shutter button (any level) accepts setting.

 

carl.

 

(Owner since 02/2007)

[robertwright]

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Everyone uses cameras differently so I can see the difficulty Leica might have in adopting changes-how to satisfy the most users?

 

I just wanted to begin another thread on alternatives to Sean's excellent proposal because I have a different perspective.

 

As it is implemented in the M8, EV compensation is applied to all exposures metering modes, manual and aperture priority. It is a simple bias. They way I would use it is if I felt the cameras meter functioned consistently in a manner not to my liking. That is, it consistently functioned to create exposures that were incorrect by my standards. Therefore I would have no need to change it on the fly, or rarely need to. It would be global.

 

As detailed in the M8 users manual however, EV compensation is the kind of thing one uses when the meter is being "fooled" by non-average scenes, for example, beaches, snow scenes, dark subjects, etc. As such it is a very traditional implementation of this feature. All cameras feature such compensation controls. To me this is not very useful, but that is a personal opinion. I know when I am being fooled. I would hope anyone spending this kind of money buying a camera would know that also, but everyone is different....

 

What would be more useful to me and I hope others is a feature that the canon dslr's have, the ability to alter automatic or program settings via the rear dial -in other words, if I was using the camera in Aperture priority, by moving the controller wheel up or down I can add or subtract exposure compensation without going into the menu. This feature would only be available in Aperture priority. In manual mode it would not apply. (EV comp would be retained however in both modes-it is a global bias setting) The point of this is to make it easier to keep the camera in Aperture priority and tweak exposure on the fly. On the canon dslr's you can have an exposure comp setting and still use the wheel in Av, Tv and Program modes, altho I have no idea if zeroing the latter zeros the Ev comp. This is up for debate.

 

I understand that Sean's suggestions are meant to do something similar but I think they break down because EV comp is not the same thing as the kind of compensation I am talking about above. There are good reasons to separate EV comp as a global setting that applies in Manual and Av, and to have Av be compensated separately. I see no reason to have Manual mode operate this way-we do have the basic controls!

 

As far as the other two suggestions for ISO and WB I am agnostic.

 

To summarize, my vote is to leave EV as it is-a menu option, and incorporate an exposure compensation in the control wheel for Av only, (a menu option to activate it like a custom function). I would get more use out of it this way, so often shooting in Av the exposure is not right, a quick roll of the wheel would set it straight. Manual stays manual.

 

What do others think?

[sean_reid]

Hi Robert,

 

A thousand thankyous for putting this in a separate thread.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[35mmSummicron]

i think that would be very useful for Av mode (aperture-priorty) only. i will say though on Canons, there is a 3 stage power switch. power off, power on and enable thumbwheel. if the switch it set to just power on, then you can scroll all you like on the thumbwheel, it won't change anything--sort of a safety. i wonder how an M8 can compensate, as it is VERY easy to jog the wheel acidentally trying to grip the camera sans film rewind lever.

 

my two cents.

 

/a

[robertwright]

i think that would be very useful for Av mode (aperture-priorty) only. i will say though on Canons, there is a 3 stage power switch. power off, power on and enable thumbwheel. if the switch it set to just power on, then you can scroll all you like on the thumbwheel, it won't change anything--sort of a safety. i wonder how an M8 can compensate, as it is VERY easy to jog the wheel acidentally trying to grip the camera sans film rewind lever.

 

my two cents.

 

/a

 

I know, I guess the only protection is that you have to A: enable it via menu and B: it only works in Av.

 

I find Av rather useless, often the exposure is wrong, and i end up in M anyway.

[guywalder]

Robert,

On my camera at least EV compensation has NO effect on exposure in manual mode, it only effects the exposure value shown in the viewfinder. I discussed this with customer service in Solms when I took my camera back to be fixed, they thought it was a fault, but it came back doing the same thing, so i assume that is the design spec.

 

As for the proposed changes, as I have posted elsewhere, I think there is a very real danger of unintended setting changes, because the buttons on the control wheel are the most exposed part of the rear of the camera, and have weaker springs than the other buttons. (this is less of a danger if settings can only be locked in with the set button)

Using the wheel as you suggest might be a bit more secure.

 

The possibility of mis-settings is all the more problematice IMHO because there is no default display of any of the 3 settings under discussion.

 

As you say, everyone is different (thank goodness!), I only ever shoot on manual, and with a preset WB which I rarely change, I have to say that I also have no problem changing ISO, and certainly dont ever feel the need to do so from shot to shot, so the current:

set:set:arrow:set

is perfectly acceptable. In fact I was perfectly happy doing that, when required in the middle of a jostlng crowd of circa 250,000 people, with no danger of my settings being accidentaly bumped.

I have nothing against an increase in utility if it helps other people, as long as it doesnt introduce new problems!

 

Now that I think about it, the great utility of my nikon is not just that it has a dedicated (recessed) ISO button, but that it also displays the set iso, both in the finder and on an external lcd. Now if that silly little circular lcd on the M8 could show the set iso as default, and the remaining capacity when the shutter button is half pressed, That would be a valuable step forward for me...

[tom0511]

Robert, I like your suggestion and I have another request which would help a lot:

I would like to see the exposure time even when I use manual exposure.

Why?

In the difficult to expose scenes we often have strong contrast. A small difference in framing can change the auto exposure value quit a bit.

So lets say the first shot is overexposed, we dial in -0,6 exp comp, but now we change slightly the framing, the -0.6 might not be correct any more.

For such difficult scenes I think manual exposure would help a lot. But I would like to see the exp time in the viewfinder.

If the exposure is right they could just let both arrows (left and right) light up, we dont need a red dot in the middle.

Whats the opinion on this?

cheers, Tom

[marknorton]

I think it's wrong to consider using the Protect and Arrow keys to initiate change in this way - to keep the user interface clean and unambiguous, all access to these functions should be through the SET key.

 

Notice how the menu only appears when you release the SET key, not when you press it. There is therefore a machine state available while the SET key is held depressed which is not currently used.

 

That's why I favour pressing and holding the SET key, then using one of the four arrow keys to nudge the setting you want in the required direction with the new setting being displayed after you press an arrow key.

 

Try it, you'll like it.

[guywalder]

Tom, good idea!

and just think, by displaying the shutter speed in the vf, the need for the engraved dial is reduced! Yes, yes, I know some people want the settings shown by analogue dials, but given that usind AE means not seeing the speed set by looking at the dial, and that EV and ISO are not displayed, maybe the M9 is the point where Leica drag themselves into a new mind set!

[luigi bertolotti]

Uhm, the proposed "alternative EV adjusting" can be interesting, but I think you lose that simplicity which, seems to me, Leica has tried to maintain on the M8 settings. Personally, I found that for subtle adjusting of the exposure, is very easy to work on the RAW in Lightroom (and think in C1 would be the same, or maybe even better...); I even did some simple tests : std. exp., +1 and -1 on the same pic, then no adj, -1 +1 in LR... I didn't noticed practical differences, even if admit that tested on "normal" shots with no "extreme" light situations.

[KM-25]

I find the exposure compensation on the M8 does work well. Well enough that if one were in AV mode and pushed and held the protect button and then spun the wheel to get the compensation desired, that would be fairly productive.

 

And just like now if I am curious as to having the compensation set or not, I can look to see what setting it is on by simply pressing set.

 

About double the user profile settings would be a nice addition as well.

[robertwright]

thanks for all the replies:

 

guy: check again, the EV comp is global and affects M and Av the same. This is why I thought it less than useful except as a global bias setting and made this thread. (edit: you and I are both "right"-it affects the arrows only as you say-but that is what M mode is correct?-You do not expect it to alter the actual exposure as it would in Av, only what the camera is telling you. This is why it is useless to me except for bias to what I think is a meter not delivering values that I like all the time. A global bias setting. )

 

tom: you are making my point, I drop out of Av into manual just in these kinds of circumstances, making Av less useful. the advantage of Av is that you do see the speed in the viewfinder, if you could roll the wheel it would help keep your eye to the viewfinder more. You do have to look at the screen to check yourself tho.

 

km-25: I like your idea too- I was trying to avoid pushing another button. On the canons once you enable the wheel for that function you only have to roll it to change the value. Yes it is easy to mung up, but we have to be responsible no?-plus it is only on Av.

 

Another reason I "borrowed" from the canons is that many people already know this workflow. It is nice to have similar haptics on cameras like we have in cars. Mostly we all know how to turn on a windshield wiper in different cars.

 

Because of this I will go a step further and say that the proposed removal of using the "set" button in Sean's proposal worries me-I have been using the shutter button as a way of "backing out" of an unintended change-to me it makes sense to have a positive confirmation of a change. When you use a mouse you do have to click, not just "choose" a menu item. The MkIIds always frustrates users because of it's counterintuitive "unclick" method of selecting items-so much so that the MKIII has abandoned that and gone with the set button feature of the D series cameras. So I believe a positive set button is an asset, not a hindrance, and I would not like to see it changed in my opinion.

[robertwright]

another idea: some people are concerned with the unintended or accidental change because the buttons are exposed-

 

proposal: adopt what Sean is talking about (I'll eat my hat, but ok:)) and use the wheel not the up down buttons to make the changes. That way, bumping the camera is not going to alter anything. People with meat gloves for hands are on their own here:) why the heck are you using such a small camera:)!

 

So it would be left button for Ev, right button for Iso or whichever and the wheel for setting, and I guess confirm by hitting the shutter button....

 

protect for wb and wheel to change., shutter to confirm.

 

I can live with that I guess.

[marknorton]

This PDF describes how I would like to see the fast access to ISO and EV implemented.

 

Leica M8 Fast ISO+EV Change.pdf

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[sean_reid]

I think it's wrong to consider using the Protect and Arrow keys to initiate change in this way - to keep the user interface clean and unambiguous, all access to these functions should be through the SET key.

 

Notice how the menu only appears when you release the SET key, not when you press it. There is therefore a machine state available while the SET key is held depressed which is not currently used.

 

That's why I favour pressing and holding the SET key, then using one of the four arrow keys to nudge the setting you want in the required direction with the new setting being displayed after you press an arrow key.

 

Try it, you'll like it.

 

Please start another thread on this, then.