IIIB upgrade

[Giuliobigazzi]

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I’ve come into possession of this Leica iiib upgrade, or so it would seem by the serial number lettering. However I can’t figure out what it would have be upgraded from or to, as the iiib is a different size to both the iiia and iiic. It has no flash sync or other additions. The only thing that looks different to me is the bottom mechanism and information plate. 

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[willeica]

42 minutes ago, Giuliobigazzi said:

I’ve come into possession of this Leica iiib upgrade, or so it would seem by the serial number lettering. However I can’t figure out what it would have be upgraded from or to, as the iiib is a different size to both the iiia and iiic. It has no flash sync or other additions. The only thing that looks different to me is the bottom mechanism and information plate. 

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I suspect the 'upgrade' might be in the shutter with later features, ball race ? You would probably have to strip down the camera to find out. There is nothing unusual about the external bodywork. The IIIa and IIIb overlapped and sometimes you will find IIIas with later features than some IIIbs, e.g. window with no indent. The following selection from my collection illustrates this.

William 

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[jerzy]

Giulio, bottom cover plat5e is indeed unusual, never seen such before. But this alone is not yet evidence that the camera has been upgraded, as William wrote we would need to see inernals of the camera. "Regular" upgrades of IIIb have  not been offered and the only upgrade of IIIb that would make sense to me would be shutter brake like it was in most of IIIa syn. But we do not see it on your photos. But would you show a photo showing reverse lever in R posuition like on my photo below? I cannot see it very clearly on your photos but suspect that your camera might not have a feature introduced already in 1936 to all models excl Standard

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William, I believe that we communicated before about your camera in the middle.  IIIb is  from the very first batch and has stepped viewer window. From approx 241xxx all II and IIIs have non-stepped

[Giuliobigazzi]

Jerzy, here is a photo of the lever you mention 

Giulio

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[jerzy]

thx, it is OK then, it was not clearly visible before

[Giuliobigazzi]

I’ve asked Leica for a delivery date, and for any repair info. Maybe it was a swap for a lost/damaged iiib or a camera produced postwar using an unused serial. Will report back once if I hear anything 

[Giuliobigazzi]

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So I’ve heard back from leica. Camera delivered 21.3.1938 and went back to the factory 27.12.1960. No notes on what was done but looking under the bottom cover it looks like the shutter is the regular kind without ball bearings. 

[jerzy]

... and Giulio made me aware about unusual bottom cover plate - I have seen it before (but forgot) - it may be found on postwar IIIa,  18x24 (Leica 72) that were produced in late 50-ties and early 60-ties and as well on some (not all) upgrades to IIIa syn performed after 1954. I have not seen it on Monte en  Saare, but there were assembled earlier

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[willeica]

On 9/11/2023 at 5:26 PM, jerzy said:

... and Giulio made me aware about unusual bottom cover plate - I have seen it before (but forgot) - it may be found on postwar IIIa,  18x24 (Leica 72) that were produced in late 50-ties and early 60-ties and as well on some (not all) upgrades to IIIa syn performed after 1954. I have not seen it on Monte en  Saare, but there were assembled earlier

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I have this post war 1948-50 IIIa which has been converted to what one might call IIIf BD status, except that the chassis is not as wide. It is not totally dissimilar to what has been posted by Giulio and Jerzy, except that it does not have what I call the 'cover' or the 'illustration'. These may have been removed while the sync conversion was being done. 

This was clearly done in the Leica HQ facility. I'd be interested in Jerzy's comments on the technical aspects of this. I will probably check on the delivery/service history of this item when I am in the Leica Archives in October. 

William 

 

 

[jerzy]

William, your camera received improved curtain brake, drum type, known from IIIc. Some details of top cover indicate that conversion was done after 1954, maybe you will get more precise date from Archive. Wind knob with DIN/ASA indicator was standart feature in upgrades, I believe.

[Giuliobigazzi]

I did wonder why my camera did not receive the full sync shutter treatment like yours. According to James Lager, the iiib was not commonly upgraded to sync shutter, at least not openly announced. Not sure why. 

[Giuliobigazzi]

I’ve seen a copy of the conversion catalogue where it says no conversion possible for the iiib, but on another it mentions that a iiib sync was possible. Not sure which of these came first but looks like it must have been less straight forward. 

[willeica]

2 hours ago, Giuliobigazzi said:

I did wonder why my camera did not receive the full sync shutter treatment like yours. According to James Lager, the iiib was not commonly upgraded to sync shutter, at least not openly announced. Not sure why. 

Mine is a postwar camera from the very last batch of IIIas that were made, just before the sync models started with the IIIf BD. According to Lars Netopil, from whom I bought the camera at auction, the camera was delivered in December 1948 and converted to a sync model in November 1953. I will check for further details with the Archive when I am there in October. Jim Lager and Lars Netopil will also be around, so I should have a good idea about the history of the camera by the time I leave Wetzlar.

William 

[jerzy]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Giuliobigazzi:

I’ve seen a copy of the conversion catalogue where it says no conversion possible for the iiib, but on another it mentions that a iiib sync was possible. Not sure which of these came first but looks like it must have been less straight forward. 

Giulio, most probably you have seen it in booklet from 1954. On one side it says it is possible but does not appear in a prices list on the next page in this booklet. Postwar conversions to IIIa without flash sync were possible and mqay be found, alhtough not very common - see my 87538. It has top cover used for sync conversions but with no flash contact numbers. I have seen only one IIIb syn, auctioned on one of Lars auctions - Betriebskamera, made from regular IIIb 240024 (photo shown is from Lars auction)

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[Giuliobigazzi]

That’s the one Jerzy. Also this one in English that says no conversion possible 

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