Would you go 35mm APO SL or 35mm Summilux-M pre-FLE

[w44neg]

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I'm considering the above lenses. They both work out to a similar price with the M-L adapter, and I can't work out which way to go.

On paper, pros of the SL 35mm APO...

- Sharpness, APO and weather sealing

Cons are...

- Dimensions, weight, overall bulk for a travel setup

With the M lens, I've come across a good deal on the pre-FLE 35mm Summilux M. I'm guessing the focus shift isn't an issue due to the live view nature of the SL2-S I'll be using, and the pros are...

- Size, weight, 1.4 aperture, bokeh rendering

Cons...

- Not weather sealed, possible vignetting wide open if it's anything like the FLE I used to own

Can you give me any experience and feel free to show any images. I'm visiting NYC in winter, so it will be cold, which makes me like the idea of weather sealing seem beneficial, but that's the main thing currently attracting me. I'm used to manual focus and M lenses in general.

My b-camera is a D-Lux 7 which I'll be using alongside the SL2-S.

I aim to be shooting for personal shots rather than my pro work. Therefore it will be things like travel, for which I've got Wetzlar, Washington and NYC coming up in the next few months.

Edited August 27 by w44neg

[robb]

Apo all day including Sunday… and the new apo designs kind of act like 1.4 lenses for pop and background.

but be warned, can’t go back to regular lenses afterward.  

Robb

Edited August 27 by robb

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[Stuart Richardson]

I have both the 35mm APO and 35mm FLE...used to have the pre FLE. For an SL camera I would get the 35mm APO every time. Best 35mm lens I have ever used. 1.4 vs 2 is not really a noticeable difference on modern digital cameras, since high ISO is so good, and I have not tested, but my sense is that the difference in DOF is not as big as you might expect, since the fall off is so quick from the APO Summicrons. The beauty of the SL lens is the superb sharpness, complete freedom from any kind of color fringing or bokeh fringing, unlike the 35mm summiluxes, and quick, accurate AF. The size is clearly a lot bigger, but it balances very well on the SL2, as they were quite literally made for each other. I found the 35mm Summilux FLE less pleasant to use on the SL2...it is great on an M. The other area where the SL lens is so great is the color and contrast...images just have a superbly lifelike color and contrast that you tend to only see in really excellent lenses. It is a bit hard to describe...I think the very very high microcontrast, very pure color and lack of vignetting or other aberrations mean they just jump off the screen/page. Most of the M lenses I have used don't have this as much as the SL or S lenses. I think it is part of the price you pay for the very compact lenses in M mount. A few do have it though...notably, the other APO lenses like the 90mm APO, 75mm APO etc.

Focus shift can be an issue unless you focus at the taking aperture...when using manual lenses it is typically easier to focus wide open as it is brighter (or at least gives a less grainy EVF image) and the sharpness window is smaller, so it is easier to focus accurately. But with the focus shifting in the pre FLE, probably better to focus at the taking aperture.

I would say, however, that you are not taking the obvious path here, which would be M camera and M lens for travel and personal work, and SL and SL lens for professional work.

Here are some from the 35mm APO, but there is only so much you can tell from images on the web. I would say "trust me". The 35mm 1.4 Summilux is one of my favorite M lenses of all time, by the way. Will see if I can dig up some images. I take more landscapes on the SL and I took more travel stuff on the M...

P.S. Click through to see the images...otherwise everything looks soft.

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Edited August 27 by Stuart Richardson

[goodbokeh]

w44neg I guess it's a head vs heart thing. A Tesla Plaid vs Porsche 911 thing. BTW, I can accurately focus with ease at f/2.8, that should take care of focus shift with your pre-FLE. What's going to inspire your photography more? A black cylinder (1 of 5) with optical brilliance or a work of historic metal & glass art with image character?

So the photo details of my camera/lens are a little different from your pre-FLE option, but not that much really...

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[Ken Abrahams]

I have both Summilux M 35 1.4 and the Apo Summicron 35 SL and shoot M and SL cameras. I love using the 35 M 1.4 with the SL2S/SL2 on the street where as the APO Summicron 35 SL is too big and not designed for street photography. Both lenses have excellent attributes, the APO 35 SL is like a breath of fresh air with crisp details and colour. The Summilux M 35 has a different bokeh, razor sharp and greens and reds pop with blue.

Ken  

[Camaro5]

I've used both but just the SL 35 APO on my SL2-S and it's the best 35mm I've used, bar none.  It's sharp and renders colors & details perfectly.

I haven't used it for street as I have a Q2/Q2M for that, but for my automotive and landscape work it's great.  

 

Edited August 27 by Camaro5

[robb]

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I’ll add that I’ve owned 3 M 35 1.4, the double aspheric, and two pre-FLE all used with film and m9/mp240.  I would still vote for the SL apo.

I like the above posts.  If I was shooting an M, I’d probably opt for the apo m summicron or even a smaller 28 2.8 asph for travel and personal work.

I guess it mainly depends on your focus.  But in general, hard to go wrong with either direction with the red dot.

Robb

[epand56]

Since I've tried both, I'm sure no Summicron-SL APO is really worth the difference in price compared to a Summicron-SL 35/2. That's the lens I'd go for. Smaller and a great performer.  

[w44neg]

Fantastic replies, thank you. Regarding this not being the obvious travel setup, I completely agree. This all started with me looking for a Leica M8, as it’s one of the few M’s I haven’t owned. 
 

However my local store put me off the M8 as parts aren’t available and I’d be relying on it to perform in conditions that could be quite poor come January in Washington and NYC.

Then yesterday this SL2S came up for sale and it was at a price I just had to jump at. I wasn’t even considering it until then 🤦‍♂️ Now I’m actually wondering if it might be able to replace my pro setup, although to be honest this is unlikely as I use an A7RV and there’s a lot of benefits to that camera for my work. Nothing essential, but the AF features are very useful. 
 

Therefore for now, it looks like I’ll be going with…

- A7RV for work/pro 

- SL2S + D-Lux 7 for travel

[Stuart Richardson]

It seems like you need to take some time to consider what you actually want out of a camera. You were set on an S2 or S006 the other day, and now it seems were thinking about the M8 as well and ended up with an SL2S as a travel camera? These are all very very different cameras...not one of them a particularly good travel camera in 2023. Personally, I am glad the local store put you off the M8. An APS-C 10mp camera from almost twenty years ago...one where the battery was bad even then and you need special filters on every lens to not have uncorrectable color problems. I know that it can take good photos (I had one), but these days it is like deciding you are going to commute to work on a penny-farthing. Sure, maybe that guy who always wears a waxed mustache, monocle and wool vest might swear by it, but it is not exactly practical these days.  For travel, I think you will get further with the A7RV, as it is more compact and lighter than the SL2S. I am not against old cameras...my most used cameras these days are wood, but it seems you need to slow down a bit and dispassionately address what you would really be served by. What kind of pro work do you do? Would dropping from 60mp to 24 even be acceptable? How many lenses would you need to replace? Is the AF good enough to do so? What about your travel photography needs more than just the D Lux 7? If there is anything, why would the SL2S be better at it than the A7RV?

Edited August 27 by Stuart Richardson

[LBJ2]

13 hours ago, goodbokeh said:

w44neg I guess it's a head vs heart thing. A Tesla Plaid vs Porsche 911 thing. BTW, I can accurately focus with ease at f/2.8, that should take care of focus shift with your pre-FLE. What's going to inspire your photography more? A black cylinder (1 of 5) with optical brilliance or a work of historic metal & glass art with image character?

So the photo details of my camera/lens are a little different from your pre-FLE option, but not that much really...

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Leica Silver in all its glory right there😎 

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

It seems like you need to take some time to consider what you actually want out of a camera. You were set on an S2 or S006 the other day, and now it seems were thinking about the M8 as well and ended up with an SL2S as a travel camera? These are all very very different cameras...not one of them a particularly good travel camera in 2023. Personally, I am glad the local store put you off the M8. An APS-C 10mp camera from almost twenty years ago...one where the battery was bad even then and you need special filters on every lens to not have uncorrectable color problems. I know that it can take good photos (I had one), but these days it is like deciding you are going to commute to work on a penny-farthing. Sure, maybe that guy who always wears a waxed mustache, monocle and wool vest might swear by it, but it is not exactly practical these days.  For travel, I think you will get further with the A7RV, as it is more compact and lighter than the SL2S. I am not against old cameras...my most used cameras these days are wood, but it seems you need to slow down a bit and dispassionately address what you would really be served by. What kind of pro work do you do? Would dropping from 60mp to 24 even be acceptable? How many lenses would you need to replace? Is the AF good enough to do so? What about your travel photography needs more than just the D Lux 7? If there is anything, why would the SL2S be better at it than the A7RV?

GAS is a powerful, and often irrational, thing.

Jeff

[w44neg]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

It seems like you need to take some time to consider what you actually want out of a camera. You were set on an S2 or S006 the other day, and now it seems were thinking about the M8 as well and ended up with an SL2S as a travel camera? These are all very very different cameras...not one of them a particularly good travel camera in 2023. Personally, I am glad the local store put you off the M8. An APS-C 10mp camera from almost twenty years ago...one where the battery was bad even then and you need special filters on every lens to not have uncorrectable color problems. I know that it can take good photos (I had one), but these days it is like deciding you are going to commute to work on a penny-farthing. Sure, maybe that guy who always wears a waxed mustache, monocle and wool vest might swear by it, but it is not exactly practical these days.  For travel, I think you will get further with the A7RV, as it is more compact and lighter than the SL2S. I am not against old cameras...my most used cameras these days are wood, but it seems you need to slow down a bit and dispassionately address what you would really be served by. What kind of pro work do you do? Would dropping from 60mp to 24 even be acceptable? How many lenses would you need to replace? Is the AF good enough to do so? What about your travel photography needs more than just the D Lux 7? If there is anything, why would the SL2S be better at it than the A7RV?

Sorry 😄

Yes so basically the S has been replaced with the SL which I’ve actually bought. The M8 is still happening but I want a rare version of it and now may have sourced one thanks to a forum member. 
 

So if all goes to plan, I’ll have the M8, SL and D-Lux 7. I just need to work out which lens route I go down. 

[Photoworks]

well the Summicron SL are superb lenses, but big and heavy for traveling, the m lenses can be adapted on different systems, but getting an old design of PRE-asph is not my choice unless you need painterly looks...

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1822408/0?keyword=Leica#16326688

One part to note that was not mentioned is that M lenses on SL need to be often opened up to focus and close back down. if you mostly shoot wide open that is a none issue.

M lenses are always going to be softer than SL lenses.

Don't forget of alternatives like Voightlender, sigma and Panasonic.

[w44neg]

16 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

well the Summicron SL are superb lenses, but big and heavy for traveling, the m lenses can be adapted on different systems, but getting an old design of PRE-asph is not my choice unless you need painterly looks...

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1822408/0?keyword=Leica#16326688

One part to note that was not mentioned is that M lenses on SL need to be often opened up to focus and close back down. if you mostly shoot wide open that is a none issue.

M lenses are always going to be softer than SL lenses.

Don't forget of alternatives like Voightlender, sigma and Panasonic.

Hadn’t heard about the focus scenario. That’s interesting. Yes I’m thinking of getting a 28mm f1.4 for my M8 if it materialises. I’m still considering the 35 APO on the SL as it just looks stunning, but as it’ll be the same as the M8, makes less sense. However the SL will be great for low light and poor weather, so I’ll have two camera that offer the same FL but a different end result. 
 

The main issue with SL lenses is they don’t sell well on the used scene, but dealers are still charging heavy prices. The disparity is therefore quite large, for example a 35 SL APO sold on eBay privately for £1750, but they’re no less than £2400 via dealers. Therefore I just need to bide my time. 

[tangosix]

SL APO for me.  Having more keeper images consistently won me over. 

[keeping_a_balance]

Fun topic.  Have the M summilux, sigma 35 2.0 L, and the apo 35.  (bought them in that order).

All great lenses.  If you have the SL2 and think you will keep it, you will buy the apo 35 one day as the itch/fomo will always be there. 

I have used both the Sigma 35 and the Apo 35 on two separate trips this year, different trips, one where I was walking more, I took the Sigma due to weight and frankly was not at all disappointed with IQ.  I was very happy (obviously) with the Apo when I took it on another trip.

The M 35 I have used mainly on my M body which sometimes I take as the only camera/lens  for some trips.

All great lenses, each has it's use.

I think you can grab any of these lenses, take them to NY and get amazing shots.

I believe you will be walking a lot so the weight consideration would be supreme at least in my case, and would sway toward something lighter like the M or sigma/panasonic or asph l mounts...

Good luck and enjoy NY!

 

[BernardC]

19 hours ago, Photoworks said:

One part to note that was not mentioned is that M lenses on SL need to be often opened up to focus and close back down. if you mostly shoot wide open that is a none issue.

That could be said of any manual lens, but I haven't found it to be the case unless you are shooting past f:8.0. 5.6 and above are easy enough to focus by eye.

If you are shooting at f:8 or more, you can probably scale-focus.

[Jon Warwick]

22 hours ago, w44neg said:

 

The main issue with SL lenses is they don’t sell well on the used scene, but dealers are still charging heavy prices. The disparity is therefore quite large, for example a 35 SL APO sold on eBay privately for £1750, but they’re no less than £2400 via dealers. Therefore I just need to bide my time. 

Anecdotally i do feel like I see a lot of used SL lenses out there in the UK sitting on shelves and not quickly finding any homes. I don’t know why that’s the case - size, weight, too many alternative EVF systems out there (including lighter medium format digital lenses from Hasselblad etc), or previous promotional discounts of new SL lenses still in people’s memory? Compared to the M equivalents, the SL APO primes are relatively amazing in terms of what one gets for the price (ie, used M APOs like the 50mm go for a lot more than a used SL prime). The again, I guess one could argue the optionality of buying a brand new Voigtlander APO Lanthar for a fraction of the price of any of those, and with a lot of similar image quality performance. Fwiw, I got a used SL 75mm APO in blemish-free condition for just shy of £2k from one large chain of stores, so occasionally one can see examples for less than others if (as you say) one bides one’s time. 

Edited August 28 by Jon Warwick

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[trickness]

It really depends on what Is important to your work. The SL APO lenses are insane - color rendition, resolution, 3D pop are really next level unique. But they are obviously not compact like M lenses, not mechanical. I primarily use the Lux M 1.4 50 ASPH on my SL2, thats my ride or die, but every time I mount the 75 APO SL on the camera I'm like "why don't I use this more? It's CRAZY good."  - and the reason is the size and weight, which aren't that big of a deal if you're using the camera with INTENT. When I'm going out to shoot I use the right tool for the job regardless of weight or size. 

For me, a 35mm is never the right tool for the job (sold my 35 SL APO). I prefer 50 or 75 for portraits, and for a more forgiving depth of field with range focusing, I prefer a 28. A 28 Summaron 5.6 is a killer street lens for sunny days - weighs nothing, set it on f/8 or f/11 and you never have to focus it at all. Fantastic vintage look. 

With the SL APO lenses, I feel like I'm shooting virtual reality or something - they are such high quality and the rendering is so strikingly modern. But is that your thing?