Early M4 black paint lens selection

[lct]

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6 hours ago, grahamc said:

I think the confusion stems from the fact that some dealers consider the earlier collapsible summicron and the rigid version as v1 collectively.  Meaning that the first black chrome one (that you have pictured) becomes v2 .  I (and most I think) prefer to think of collapsible as v1, rigid as v2 and then the one you have pictured is v3.  This seems most common but of course from time to time you see different , or even incorrect, naming of any lens .

There are both collapsible (11116) and rigid (11117, 11118) Summicron 50/2 v1 AFAIK. 50/2 v2 is 11818 or 11918 and 50/2 v3 is 11817... if i'm not missing something...

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[grahamc]

3 hours ago, lct said:

There are both collapsible (11116) and rigid (11117, 11118) Summicron 50/2 v1 AFAIK. 50/2 v2 is 11818 or 11918 and 50/2 v3 is 11817... if i'm not missing something...

Sorry I had confused myself there as it's a while since I've looked at this .  What I think I was referring to was inconsistencies whether the 2nd and 3rd lens in the following picture are treated as one version (i.e. Both V2, 1956-1960), or treated as separate versions (V2 and V3).  If the latter then we sometimes see the 'real v3' ("highleg" as in the OPs recent pictures) referred to as v4 .

For me the highleg / first black chrome one is v3, as you have said 

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[lct]

Strange indeed as v3 can hardly be confused with the previous versions optically. Was the first Summicron 50 with 6 elements, instead of 7 in 6 groups for v1 and v2.

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[Davidjohndavid]

7 hours ago, grahamc said:

Hi @Davidjohndavid, I can't help on all of the questions but can say (although probably you already know it) that these black summicrons are exactly the same lens, people just use different naming conventions.   I think the confusion stems from the fact that some dealers consider the earlier collapsible summicron and the rigid version as v1 collectively.    Meaning that the first black chrome one (that you have pictured) becomes v2 .  I (and most I think) prefer to think of collapsible as v1, rigid as v2 and then the one you have pictured is v3.  This seems most common but of course from time to time you see different , or even incorrect, naming of any lens .

By the way, this v3 (as I call it ) that you have pictured is a brilliant lens, I love mine and have all the 50 crons from v2 rigid up to the current version. 

If you do choose to get a lens painted by Kanto I would highly recommend it - not only their repaint work is brilliant but after their overhauls/CLA the lens will fee fantastic, I recently had one done.  if you do then better to choose a lens that is brass, as they will strip the silver chrome and paint over brass .  You are probably aware they can also apply a worn look if that kind of thing appeals to you, showing brass through the paint .

Give them a heads up that you want the finish to match your M4 as they have four different black paint choices.

Hope some of this helps  .    

 

 

Thank you! Very helpful. I’m still a bit confused as to some of the specifics of these lenses, it’s starting to come together.
 

I just assumed the Summaron was brass because of it’s age… After reading your comment I’ve searched quite a bit, but nothing I’ve found so far definitively states what material it’s made of though. I know the earlier screw version is brass and I found a site that states generally that the Summaron without indication to which model was brass, but only showed a picture of the earlier model cut in half revealing the brass with a picture of one of the the m-mount versions next to it… I need to confirm 100% what material it is, because the brassing is definitely what I’m after… I sent them pictures of my M4 for paint reference to match. I appreciate the insight. I was going to send it off without much more thought. I’m going to take a breather and do a little more research.
 

Here’s another aspect that I find interesting, from my understanding... Production number 11113. It’s the 50mm Summilux black paint production number and V3’s code for a black chrome lens, which not much later down the V3’s production line road gets absorbed into production number 11114 as chrome V3’s phase out. The first picture I posted is what looks to be a V3 with a serial number that’s dates it to 1966, which makes no sense considering it predates version 3’s release and is not black paint. But, it gives me hope that there’s a potential for a black lens from 1967 that’s under $3k that’s production number 11113. 
 

I’m definitely going to purchase a modern 50mm down the road and pair it with my M2 and M4. Which lens would you suggest, considering the vintage body? I’ve read that the combo of modern and vintage makes for a great combo and the new ASPH II looks like a great option. I know there isn’t a single answer and there are plenty of factors at play… I like the picture quality and bokeh of the Noctilux lenses and the 1.2 reissue is super nice, but they might be a bit too big for me. I already have a Summaron(vintage, but I feel like it covers that base fairly well), which leaves the amazing Summilux. Which version is the question... Is it worth the extra dough for the new ASPH and ASPH II? 

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[derleicaman]

Welcome to the club and trying to figure out what is "period correct" for a certain camera, and camera finish. I have done a lot of research on these things in working with Leica on the "retro" lenses I did with them for the LHSA special editions. Black paint was my original mission, as Leica had discontinued it in favor of the black chrome. I felt there was a market for a modern Leica in black paint, and so the LHSA Black Paint M6TTL was born. Same thing for the black paint LHSA lenses. The mount had to be all brass for it to develop proper patina.

One great reference is the Leica Pocket book. Another would be Jim Lager's book on Leica lenses. Some of the later lenses like the Summaron above were mixed brass and alloy. Some of these alloy parts appear to be painted, not anodized. If you look at pictures of lenses like the 50/2 Summicron and 50 1/4 Summilux in original black paint, you can see aluminum alloy poking through the black paint. Not a great look when you would like to see just brass.

[CSG123]

On 8/16/2023 at 4:53 AM, TomB_tx said:

Here are the body/lens combos offered by Leitz USA in June 1968:

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That's a very interesting catalog page!  I happen to have an M4 1177755 that I bought some years ago and after doing some homework, decided that I wanted the 50mm DR.  I bought mine from Sherry, the 1957 5cm version, and use them together to this day.  I think the DR was the most interesting Leica 50mm lens and it pairs beautifully with the M4.  Very cool to see Leica offering them as a pair in 1968.

[grahamc]

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2 hours ago, Davidjohndavid said:

 

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Hi @Davidjohndavid.  It does look like that version of the Summaron is brass doesn't it.    I gave your situation some thought and looked at some serial numbers of particular lenses.   

Firstly, if it was me looking for a lens specifically for such a special body that you have, I would immediately forget about the black chrome options, you may not be happy with the match.   From the period the 2 nicest looking lenses in my opinion are the 35mm Summicron V1 '8 element' and the 50mm Summilux v2 in Silver Chrome body (it's actually the same body as v1, but is v2 glass).    Regarding the 35mm 8e, original black paint copies are extremely expensive, but not only that this lens is not brass , so any wear to the 35mm 8e will show 'silvering' rather than brass - so for me this counts it out as a choice (and quite thankfully too as the price point would be 25K EUR and up). 

The 50 Summilux v2 in Silver Chrome is for sure one of the most handsome Leica lenses .  And I can see (see below) that there are 1967 production units in Silver Chrome.  Some patience and I am sure one will pop up, and you are talking around $3-3.5K.  The silver chrome I think that lens will be brass .  Body condition should not matter too much as Kanto would strip it.  This is personally what I would do if I were you but of course this is just personal for all of us .  Check it’s brass (someone here will know - I don’t have one just yet but I’m looking for one)

Another option seemingly produced in 1967 is the 50mm Summicron Rigid, which I think you mentioned before.  I would take the same approach and have a brass/chrome re-painted.  Both the summicron and summilux in original black paint will be extremely expensive and not necessary in this circumstances in my opinion - the first batch M4 you have is the prize and it would be nice to get a cost-effective matching lens to match without a nose-bleed price .  Again, just personal .   I prefer the summilux over the rigid, bt downside of both is 1m minimum focus distance.

A final option if I was considering all of this would be the amazing 50mm "Jahre" special edition from 2002. This was a limited edition lens , 0.7 minimum focus distance and containing modern optics (same as the current 50mm summicron). However, it was produced in a body based on the 50mm rigid .  Picture below.  This is an amazing lens with a super smooth and fast focus throw.  It would cost around $5K and of course it not 'period correct' in terms of the year produced - however on the camera it would look amazing and also it is modern glass.Again, in your shoes I would have Kanto repaint it.  By the way Kanto will be well aware of the different black paints through the years so will choose the most appropriate of their finishes for your camera once they see the pics, so don't stress about that .  here is the 2002 "Jahre" special edition:

Sorry I realised that pic is extremely blurry but you get the idea. The Jahre is easily available if we are prepared to pay the prices.  I'd probably be going for that, or the Summilux (will be harder to find) if I was set on having a lens from 1967 .

That's all I've got as I don't shoot the very modern lenses 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by grahamc

[Davidjohndavid]

5 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Welcome to the club and trying to figure out what is "period correct" for a certain camera, and camera finish. I have done a lot of research on these things in working with Leica on the "retro" lenses I did with them for the LHSA special editions. Black paint was my original mission, as Leica had discontinued it in favor of the black chrome. I felt there was a market for a modern Leica in black paint, and so the LHSA Black Paint M6TTL was born. Same thing for the black paint LHSA lenses. The mount had to be all brass for it to develop proper patina.

One great reference is the Leica Pocket book. Another would be Jim Lager's book on Leica lenses. Some of the later lenses like the Summaron above were mixed brass and alloy. Some of these alloy parts appear to be painted, not anodized. If you look at pictures of lenses like the 50/2 Summicron and 50 1/4 Summilux in original black paint, you can see aluminum alloy poking through the black paint. Not a great look when you would like to see just brass.

I just read a post of yours. Pretty impressive work! It seems like you went on a crazy journey to get the “LHSA Black Paint M6TTL” to production  

I’ll add those books to my now existent need to get Leica reference books. Thank you sir! I’m going to purchase them after I write this. 
 

To clarify, were you saying that the Summaron 35mm 3.5 was mixed aluminum alloy and brass? 

[Davidjohndavid]

4 hours ago, grahamc said:

Hi @Davidjohndavid.  It does look like that version of the Summaron is brass doesn't it.    I gave your situation some thought and looked at some serial numbers of particular lenses.   

Firstly, if it was me looking for a lens specifically for such a special body that you have, I would immediately forget about the black chrome options, you may not be happy with the match.   From the period the 2 nicest looking lenses in my opinion are the 35mm Summicron V1 '8 element' and the 50mm Summilux v2 in Silver Chrome body (it's actually the same body as v1, but is v2 glass).    Regarding the 35mm 8e, original black paint copies are extremely expensive, but not only that this lens is not brass , so any wear to the 35mm 8e will show 'silvering' rather than brass - so for me this counts it out as a choice (and quite thankfully too as the price point would be 25K EUR and up). 

The 50 Summilux v2 in Silver Chrome is for sure one of the most handsome Leica lenses .  And I can see (see below) that there are 1967 production units in Silver Chrome.  Some patience and I am sure one will pop up, and you are talking around $3-3.5K.  The silver chrome I think that lens will be brass .  Body condition should not matter too much as Kanto would strip it.  This is personally what I would do if I were you but of course this is just personal for all of us .  Check it’s brass (someone here will know - I don’t have one just yet but I’m looking for one)

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Another option seemingly produced in 1967 is the 50mm Summicron Rigid, which I think you mentioned before.  I would take the same approach and have a brass/chrome re-painted.  Both the summicron and summilux in original black paint will be extremely expensive and not necessary in this circumstances in my opinion - the first batch M4 you have is the prize and it would be nice to get a cost-effective matching lens to match without a nose-bleed price .  Again, just personal .   I prefer the summilux over the rigid, bt downside of both is 1m minimum focus distance.

A final option if I was considering all of this would be the amazing 50mm "Jahre" special edition from 2002. This was a limited edition lens , 0.7 minimum focus distance and containing modern optics (same as the current 50mm summicron). However, it was produced in a body based on the 50mm rigid .  Picture below.  This is an amazing lens with a super smooth and fast focus throw.  It would cost around $5K and of course it not 'period correct' in terms of the year produced - however on the camera it would look amazing and also it is modern glass.Again, in your shoes I would have Kanto repaint it.  By the way Kanto will be well aware of the different black paints through the years so will choose the most appropriate of their finishes for your camera once they see the pics, so don't stress about that .  here is the 2002 "Jahre" special edition:

Sorry I realised that pic is extremely blurry but you get the idea. The Jahre is easily available if we are prepared to pay the prices.  I'd probably be going for that, or the Summilux (will be harder to find) if I was set on having a lens from 1967 .

That's all I've got as I don't shoot the very modern lenses 

 

 

Man. My phone just died while editing a super long reply to this… In short. Lol. I totally agree with the year correct chrome Summilux and Rigid routes. The Chrome 50mm Summilux is my first option and the mid price range for all options(excluding year correct bp and Noctilux 1.2, which throw the price curve way off) and is in the end going to result in the best aesthetic result with amazing performance, especially after a full service. The next is the Rigid, but my only hesitation is having two lenses that perform identically. If I Can’t find a Summilux and I happen upon a Rigid, I’ll go for it and eventually sell the Dual Range to help fund another lens option. Third is the Jahre now. I never heard of it and if I wasn’t stuck on the year correct aspect, it would be my first choice. After a quick search, I found one for about $5,500, but it ships from Hong Kong. All in, after service and paint from Kanto, plus all the shipping fees and fees associated with this purchase, the price almost doubles. 4th and 5th options now are the LHSA and Millenium BP lenses. They’re crazy expensive though and I’d have to sell something to top off the the “fun” money account to be able to go this route. 

[Guest]

Personally, I shudder at the thought of having the "50 Jahre" Summicron repainted. The same holds for any other reasonably rare Leica product (it also holds for any 19th century fresco in Spanish churches...). That must be the part-time collector in me, and I understand that this may be an unpopular opinion. Just put a silver chrome lens on your nice black paint camera, it looks stunning. At least that gives future generations of Leica enthusiasts more possibilities to purchase and enjoy the original lens. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Studienkamera

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Studienkamera said:

Personally, I shudder at the thought of having the "50 Jahre" Summicron repainted. The same holds for any other reasonably rare Leica product (it also holds for any 19th century fresco in Spanish churches...). That must be the part-time collector in me, and I understand that this may be an unpopular opinion. Just put a silver chrome lens on your nice black paint camera, it looks stunning. At least that gives future generations of Leica enthusiasts more possibilities to purchase and enjoy the original lens. 

I agree generally it's much nicer to keep things original (although did recently get a brass lens repainted so perhaps don't feel quite as strongly  ).   The suggestions are mostly in the context of David seemingly being set on matching a BP lens, and the original options being so expensive.  I must say it crossed my mind how nice your existing lens looks on that M4 too @Davidjohndavid . 

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Davidjohndavid said:

Man. My phone just died while editing a super long reply to this… In short. Lol. I totally agree with the year correct chrome Summilux and Rigid routes. The Chrome 50mm Summilux is my first option and the mid price range for all options(excluding year correct bp and Noctilux 1.2, which throw the price curve way off) and is in the end going to result in the best aesthetic result with amazing performance, especially after a full service. The next is the Rigid, but my only hesitation is having two lenses that perform identically. If I Can’t find a Summilux and I happen upon a Rigid, I’ll go for it and eventually sell the Dual Range to help fund another lens option. Third is the Jahre now. I never heard of it and if I wasn’t stuck on the year correct aspect, it would be my first choice. After a quick search, I found one for about $5,500, but it ships from Hong Kong. All in, after service and paint from Kanto, plus all the shipping fees and fees associated with this purchase, the price almost doubles. 4th and 5th options now are the LHSA and Millenium BP lenses. They’re crazy expensive though and I’d have to sell something to top off the the “fun” money account to be able to go this route. 

The 50:1.4 v2 summilux is a beautiful looking lens and would look more period correct IMO.  The 'millennium' is nice but uses a very shiny 'piano black' paint, which is consistent with modern MP but won't match exactly your M4.  It could be worth checking out fotopia.com.hk - Gilbert the owner of the store often gets Kanto repaints through so you might be able to save some of the Kanto wait time if you get lucky with what he may have in stock .   Gilbert would also know which finishes match original M4 paint .   

Could be worth emailing also in case they have things not on the website 

Edited August 25, 2023 by grahamc

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Davidjohndavid said:

Man. My phone just died while editing a super long reply to this… In short. Lol. I totally agree with the year correct chrome Summilux and Rigid routes. The Chrome 50mm Summilux is my first option and the mid price range for all options(excluding year correct bp and Noctilux 1.2, which throw the price curve way off) and is in the end going to result in the best aesthetic result with amazing performance, especially after a full service. The next is the Rigid, but my only hesitation is having two lenses that perform identically. If I Can’t find a Summilux and I happen upon a Rigid, I’ll go for it and eventually sell the Dual Range to help fund another lens option. Third is the Jahre now. I never heard of it and if I wasn’t stuck on the year correct aspect, it would be my first choice. After a quick search, I found one for about $5,500, but it ships from Hong Kong. All in, after service and paint from Kanto, plus all the shipping fees and fees associated with this purchase, the price almost doubles. 4th and 5th options now are the LHSA and Millenium BP lenses. They’re crazy expensive though and I’d have to sell something to top off the the “fun” money account to be able to go this route. 

Any excuse to post - here is my newly re-painted 35:1.4v2 (brass/titanium version ,stripped to brass and Kanto painted) along with 50 millennium and MP.  @Studienkamera look away now 😆

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[yorda@]

Too bad the lens hood doesn’t match the lens paint Graham!

what a pair of lens!

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[grahamc]

9 minutes ago, yorda@ said:

Too bad the lens hood doesn’t match the lens paint Graham!

what a pair of lens!

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ha a shame indeed !   Wow nice kit - what is this body and lens, is it the same lens as mine ? 🧐

Edited August 25, 2023 by grahamc

[yorda@]

Hey,

 MP 0.72 with adapted M3 top plate with no serial paired with a « regular » 262xx Canadian Summilux.

repainted and tuned by Shueido.

 

to reply to the OP, I’d pair the M4bp with a 35 2.8 Summaron and a 50 rigid. 😁

Edited August 25, 2023 by yorda@

[grahamc]

1 minute ago, yorda@ said:

Hey,

 MP 0.72 with adapted M3 top plate with no serial paired with a « regular » 262xx Canadian Summilux.

repainted and tuned by Shueido.

Beauty ! 

[yorda@]

Thanks!

i call it the MP3P 😅.

I must point at that all the credit goes to the honourable member of this forum who had the idea and time to make it happen!💪

 

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[Bronco McBeast]

9 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

Personally, I shudder at the thought of having the "50 Jahre" Summicron repainted. The same holds for any other reasonably rare Leica product (it also holds for any 19th century fresco in Spanish churches...). That must be the part-time collector in me, and I understand that this may be an unpopular opinion. Just put a silver chrome lens on your nice black paint camera, it looks stunning. At least that gives future generations of Leica enthusiasts more possibilities to purchase and enjoy the original lens. 

It’a also available in black paint, stock.

[Davidjohndavid]

15 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

Personally, I shudder at the thought of having the "50 Jahre" Summicron repainted. The same holds for any other reasonably rare Leica product (it also holds for any 19th century fresco in Spanish churches...). That must be the part-time collector in me, and I understand that this may be an unpopular opinion. Just put a silver chrome lens on your nice black paint camera, it looks stunning. At least that gives future generations of Leica enthusiasts more possibilities to purchase and enjoy the original lens. 

I didn’t consider the potential implications of painting this lens... I didn’t realize how collectible it’s considered to be. I’m still new to this world and learning. With that said, It seems as though a black paint version was offered as well. I haven’t seen any for sale, or any articles featuring it… A large part of the fun with this camera is the research and apparently my journey just started. As far as aesthetics, I’m 100% set on matching the lens to my M4 BP’s paint and brassing(which isn’t much). Which lens and route I opt for is fluid. A date correct 50mm Summilux 1.4 in chrome is my hopeful choice.