Early M4 black paint lens selection

[Davidjohndavid]

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I recently acquired a first batch Black Paint M4, serial number 1181801. After some research, I haven’t been able to figure out what lens would have paired with this camera when originally sold. There’s a few options from that era that seem correct. Is there an archive of sales brochures out there for reference, or other sources for reference, to confirm which lens would be the best fit to pair it with? Any help would be appreciated. 

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[pippy]

Simply look for whichever f/length from the time you want and see what was available in 1967 / '68.

I know that the 'Rigid' (v2) 50mm Summicron of that time-frame was available in Black-Paint finish so that would probably be quite a nice match for your body.

P.

Edited August 15, 2023 by pippy

[nitroplait]

The matching lenses were mostly black anodised aluminium at the time (from the 1969 Summicron 50 V3 ).

Very few people paid extra for black painted cameras and lenses that quickly looked ugly (in the eyes of the users at the time). 

Pros didn't care - black was black - paint or chrome.

If your vanity dictates a truly matching lens, you can just take out a bank loan and get a black paint Summicron 50 (v2).

[Davidjohndavid]

14 minutes ago, pippy said:

Simply look for whichever f/length from the time you want and see what was available in 1967 / '68.

I know that the 'Rigid' (v2) 50mm Summicron of that time-frame was available in Black-Paint finish so that would probably be quite a nice match for your body.

P.

Thank you sir. I was hoping that there wasn’t a specific lens that was sold with it. This is the exact lens I’ve been looking for. My hope is to find one date coded to 1967. 

[Davidjohndavid]

17 minutes ago, nitroplait said:

The matching lenses were mostly black anodised aluminium at the time (from the 1969 Summicron 50 V3 ).

Very few people paid extra for black painted cameras and lenses that quickly looked ugly (in the eyes of the users at the time). 

Pros didn't care - black was black - paint or chrome.

If your vanity dictates a truly matching lens, you can just take out a bank loan and get a black paint Summicron 50 (v2).

Zero vanity. I want to match an appropriate lens to this body. It’s a special camera and I think it deserves to be paired with something in line with what would’ve been a “standard” pairing of the time... I also don’t want to pay $30k for a lens. I just started this journey and will gladly take any and all advice in the process. 

[a.noctilux]

In my knowledge, at the BP M4 production period, only anodized lenses were available in black, maybe silver finish also.

At those days, the M4 was offered without lens, the choice is free from user.

I use mine with silver/titanium coated/anodized lenses happily.

You can use any lens ( = any finish ) on it, then take some pictures with this smart/smooth M4.

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the middle BP Summilux-M came some decades after the M4, heavy though

maybe good match ?

 

...

this one may be period correct but quite rare

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by a.noctilux

[TomB_tx]

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I bought my (chrome) M4 in 1968, but it was 1967 build - which was very common in those years to have cameras and lenses "in the pipeline" for even a few years. Most dealers then were smaller camera shops with a Leica franchise and sales we slower than today. I asked my dealer for a 50 Summicron, and when it arrived it was a black anodized ver 3 - '68 build. I had expected a normal ver 2 as I don't think the ver 3 had been announced (or at least publicized) yet. But the ver 3 is very well matched to the camera, and was my main lens for over 40 years, until I wanted to see if the ver 5 was really better on digital. So I'd suggest you consider a black ver 3 as a good match.

[Bronco McBeast]

I’d say a very magical Summicron 35mm V2 with the fantastic little tab. Doesn’t get more magnum than that.

[a.noctilux]

Yes 35mm Summicron of those days are quite deep black finish ...maybe BP

I

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II

III

...

have a look at mine with IV, here

Edited August 15, 2023 by a.noctilux

[Davidjohndavid]

Thank you all! I’m heading to the beach for my daughters birthday and will start researching a bit more tonight using this new information. Is there a site, or dealer that you guys know of that deal in trades? I have a couple vintage chrome Leica lenses I can possibly trade. The likelihood of someone who’s willing to trade and has an appropriate 1967 black lens, is unlikely, but it’s worth a shot. 

[madNbad]

39 minutes ago, Davidjohndavid said:

Thank you all! I’m heading to the beach for my daughters birthday and will start researching a bit more tonight using this new information. Is there a site, or dealer that you guys know of that deal in trades? I have a couple vintage chrome Leica lenses I can possibly trade. The likelihood of someone who’s willing to trade and has an appropriate 1967 black lens, is unlikely, but it’s worth a shot. 

Check with Tamarkin Camera in Chicago. They are one of the site sponsors and have experience with rare and unusual Leica cameras and lenses. I took a quick look at their lens selection and it may not be exactly period correct but would look stunning on your camera, they have a 50 1.4 Summilux ASPH Red Scale in black chrome. Good luck and welcome to the forum!

http://www.tamarkin.com

[Davidjohndavid]

4 hours ago, madNbad said:

Check with Tamarkin Camera in Chicago. They are one of the site sponsors and have experience with rare and unusual Leica cameras and lenses. I took a quick look at their lens selection and it may not be exactly period correct but would look stunning on your camera, they have a 50 1.4 Summilux ASPH Red Scale in black chrome. Good luck and welcome to the forum!

http://www.tamarkin.com

I talked to Dan Tamarkin through email and considered listing with his upcoming auction in November, but decided to hold onto it. I’ve seen a few of his videos where he drinks nice beer while discussing the cameras of the day. He’s very knowledgeable and I like and trust him. Like you said though, he doesn’t have a date correct black lens in stock. I’m pretty set on getting something that’s from the same year. There’s three auctions coming up in the next 3 months and I’m hoping a couple lenses will be up for sale in them. 
 

Thank you for the welcome! This is a great forum full of incredibly knowledgeable folks, from which I’ve already learned a ton from. I love combing through old threads. 

[madNbad]

Good to hear! Check the forum classifieds occasionally, you never know what will show up. 
 

I have a chrome M4 from the first big run starting in July of 1967. DAG Camera serviced it and installed a M3 style lens release collar so I can’t keep accidentally bumping it and wondering why the lens feels loose. 

[lct]

Unlike the silver M4s, which could be sold with a variety of 50mm lenses (Elmar, Summicron, Summilux), the black M4s were sold without lenses (code # 10402), their buyers being expected to buy lenses separately. These buyers were professionals generally, as the more fragile black finishes did not appeal to consumers then.

[Stein K S]

Shouten-select have a regular black Leitz Summicron 50mm 3rd (11817) mint- inkl hood 12585 for euro 1350,-. Produced in 1973. Not what you are wishing for, but still… 😉

[lct]

I'm not aware of black paint Summicron v3. Black anodized yes but black paint i don't know.

[Bronco McBeast]

The Black Paint 35mm summicron 8e is definitely one of the Leica Holy grail lenses and would definitely deserve to live on a BP M3, M2, and M4.

[lct]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I'm not aware of black paint Summicron v3. Black anodized yes but black paint i don't know.

I meant Summicron 50 v3 sorry. 35mm lenses have never been sold as bundles with M4 cameras AFAIK.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[TomB_tx]

Here are the body/lens combos offered by Leitz USA in June 1968:

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[pippy]

12 hours ago, Davidjohndavid said:

...I’m pretty set on getting something that’s from the same year...

This is fine unless you have your heart set on finding a Black Paint lens and are happy to pair with your body with either a Black Chrome or Silver Chrome example. As Arnaud has mentioned earlier in post #6 by 1967 Leitz were not really using Black-Paint as a finish any longer and those lenses which were finished in Black Paint are rare and, as such, tend to be very sought-after by collectors and are priced to match.

Most sources I've seen list the serial-number range for 1967 lenses as being 2 236 501 to 2 254 400 although at least one site gives 2 217 201 as the starting point.

If you are after a 35mm lens from 1967 my suggestion would be to search for a v2 Summilux. This is one of the most legendary lenses ever released by Leitz and was considered so good that its optical design was unchanged in a production span of some 35 years from 1960 until it was replaced by the ASPH version in 1994. These lenses DO have a considerable amount of 'glow' at Max. Ap. - which is a large part of their appeal - and things calm-down from around f2.8-down.

There were a couple of cosmetic changes over its life-cycle. The earliest version (v1) is known today as the 'Steel Rim'. It was available (sort-of) in Black but these lenses can cost around the same as a small house. By 1967 the 'Steel Rim' had been replaced by the aforementioned v2 and these lenses are readily available and considerably more affordable.

Here's the link to good old Ken Rockwell's page on these lenses;

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/35mm-f14.htm

The v2 was (AFAIK) only ever available in Black Chrome. Although this might not initially sound like a good match to your B-P body in reality they can pair quite well. Here are a couple of snaps to give you an idea of how the v2 lens (this one dates to 1974) looks on a Black Paint body - with and without the dedicated 12504 hood;

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Philip.

Edited August 16, 2023 by pippy