Advice for a F1.4 35mm lens with a balance of compactness, distortion control and budget — Nokton 35/1.4 or ?

[costa43]

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I own the 40mm f1.4 Nokton which shares the same design as the 35mm and I enjoy its look wide open, especially for people pics.
 

CV also have the more recently released 35mm f1.5. It provides an image far closer to what you will get with the FLE if that is what you are looking for.

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[rramesh]

2 hours ago, Greenhilltony said:

In fact, the reason why I put emphasis to barrel distortion control is: I don't want to pay the subscription for a full-featured LR on iPad, which unlocks the correction panels. That's why I'm satisfied with the M-Rokkor 40/2 and Light Lens Lab 35/2 but not the optically remarkable VM 35/2 Ultron II. The Ultron has quite noticeable barrel distortion at 2-3 meters, and those are my favourite distances to play streetphotography, and people are frequently placed off-centre for the composition and story-telling. It's just a personal taste, weighing sharpness, bokeh, distortion, corner perfectness in different manner. I can't speak for others who are concerned of the barrel distortions on VM 35/1.4 II of course.

For street photography, a little barrel distortion should not really matter, I would think.

Edited August 18, 2023 by rramesh

[hansvons]

3 hours ago, Greenhilltony said:

In fact, the reason why I put emphasis to barrel distortion control is: I don't want to pay the subscription for a full-featured LR on iPad, which unlocks the correction panels.

I know we are all different etc., but why would one limit one’s possibilities on the workflow’s end when all else is top-notch? I read that people are highly finicky with their camera hardware, hoarding lenses and cameras worth (many) tens of thousands of euros/dollars/pounds, many of them never/hardly used, but refuse to pay monthly 10-20 quid for proper postproduction. Is that a sport? Is that a generational thing? And isn’t it about image making, in the end? Perhaps not. 

[lct]

49 minutes ago, rramesh said:

The Ultron has quite noticeable barrel distortion at 2-3 meters, and those are my favourite distances to play streetphotography, and people are frequently placed off-centre for the composition and story-telling. It's just a personal taste

The distortion of the Nokton 35/1.4 v2 is noticeable on close-ups but less so at 2-3 meters, at least the SC variant of it i have experience with. Couple of f/1.4 snaps below at similar distances.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-CV-3514-SC-v2/i-7RktMdH/0/06784680/X4/M1002380_sips-X4.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-CV-3514-SC-v2/i-3VC4S5D/0/af171a6a/X4/M1002362_sips-X4.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-CV-3514-SC-v2/i-xqrRSTP/0/5794bfaa/X4/M1002374_sips-X4.jpg

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by lct

[Greenhilltony]

15 minutes ago, hansvons said:

I know we are all different etc., but why would one limit one’s possibilities on the workflow’s end when all else is top-notch? I read that people are highly finicky with their camera hardware, hoarding lenses and cameras worth (many) tens of thousands of euros/dollars/pounds, many of them never/hardly used, but refuse to pay monthly 10-20 quid for proper postproduction. Is that a sport? Is that a generational thing? And isn’t it about image making, in the end? Perhaps not. 

I know you’re right,  the workflow is easy to find a workaround. I’m still interested in the VM 35/1.4 II, and want to try it in person. If I confirm its other qualities and characters are very appealing to me, I will go for it.

[Greenhilltony]

19 minutes ago, lct said:

The distortion of the Nokton 35/1.4 v2 is noticeable on close-ups but less so at 2-3 meters, at least the SC variant of it i have experience with. Couple of snaps below at similar distances.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-CV-3514-SC-v2/i-7RktMdH/0/06784680/X4/M1002380_sips-X4.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-CV-3514-SC-v2/i-3VC4S5D/0/af171a6a/X4/M1002362_sips-X4.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-CV-3514-SC-v2/i-xqrRSTP/0/5794bfaa/X4/M1002374_sips-X4.jpg

 

Valuable references! I am totally fine with these pics.

[hansvons]

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2 minutes ago, Greenhilltony said:

I know you’re right,  the workflow is easy to find a workaround. I’m still interested in the VM 35/1.4 II, and want to try it in person. If I confirm its other qualities and characters are very appealing to me, I will go for it.

Apologies for sounding a bit harsh but saving a penny on postproduction while spending tens of thousands on hardware is a thing here on the forums. Probably it's me and my expectation on why one buys a camera or lenses and why there’s postproduction. So, again my apologies.

I don't want to lure you into the Nokton. But it sounded as if you were looking for a 35mm character lens that will get actual use. It's not a collector’s item like the SR reissue or the real vintage Summiluxes and Summicrons. So, if this interests you, which is perfectly fine, I’d rule out the Nokton.

Probably the greatest advantage of the Nokton is its price. I don't know your budget, but mine is limited and the photography gear must pay for itself at some point. Using a 3k+ lens in an unfavourable environment hampers my photography, and I don't baby my gear, on the contrary. But I do own “proper” Leica glass that outperforms lenses like the Nokton in technical terms because there are use cases that warrant higher costs.

However, the Nokton snugs nicely into the equation of built quality, photographic results, and real-world usability. All things considered, I’d go even so far and will say it's a singular occurrence for use on film Ms.

Lastly the barrel distortion. Yes, it's there. My perspective on this is defined by my experience with cine glass. For technical shots such as pack shots, this is a no-go. On storytelling, slight barrel distortion is for many a non-issue, even pays into the definition of space and how things are arranged in the image. For reference, I’d check any film classic and any modern film shot on anamorphic glass.

And, of course, all of that is highly diverse and individual. And there’s only one truth, and that's how one feels because we’re not discussing engineering but creative expression.

[Smudgerer]

41 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Apologies for sounding a bit harsh but saving a penny on postproduction while spending tens of thousands on hardware is a thing here on the forums. Probably it's me and my expectation on why one buys a camera or lenses and why there’s postproduction. So, again my apologies.

I don't want to lure you into the Nokton. But it sounded as if you were looking for a 35mm character lens that will get actual use. It's not a collector’s item like the SR reissue or the real vintage Summiluxes and Summicrons. So, if this interests you, which is perfectly fine, I’d rule out the Nokton.

Probably the greatest advantage of the Nokton is its price. I don't know your budget, but mine is limited and the photography gear must pay for itself at some point. Using a 3k+ lens in an unfavourable environment hampers my photography, and I don't baby my gear, on the contrary. But I do own “proper” Leica glass that outperforms lenses like the Nokton in technical terms because there are use cases that warrant higher costs.

However, the Nokton snugs nicely into the equation of built quality, photographic results, and real-world usability. All things considered, I’d go even so far and will say it's a singular occurrence for use on film Ms.

Lastly the barrel distortion. Yes, it's there. My perspective on this is defined by my experience with cine glass. For technical shots such as pack shots, this is a no-go. On storytelling, slight barrel distortion is for many a non-issue, even pays into the definition of space and how things are arranged in the image. For reference, I’d check any film classic and any modern film shot on anamorphic glass.

And, of course, all of that is highly diverse and individual. And there’s only one truth, and that's how one feels because we’re not discussing engineering but creative expression.

Totally agree, and very well put.........

I have the Leica SR re-issue and yes it's a fine offering from Leica, ( despite the embarrassing lens-hood/filter usage debacle ), it's a couple of "looks" in one lens depending on what aperture is used and it has nullified my desire for a 35 Summcron v2 because of that..........But I have also bought the Nokton Classic 35 1.4 SC too and whilst it duplicates to some degree the "character" of Leica's SR re-issue I find it's handling better than the Leica Summilux. Voigtlander has, as several here have mentioned, been really stepping up their game for M camera users in recent years and their lenses are not shabby at all, in fact I await today the delivery of the new VM 28 Skopar and the 35 Skopar for which I traded some little used Leica gear this past week. I know those VM lenses will be well used items in my kit, ( I appreciate small compact lenses on the M series of bodies, film or digital ), and Voigtlander have been ticking that box very well indeed recently.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Smudgerer

[hansvons]

18 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

… in fact I await today the delivery of the new VM 28 Skopar and the 35 Skopar for which I traded some little used Leica gear this past week.

I’d like to hear what you will say about the 35mm Skopar.

I have it too, but will sell it. The reason is that it renders faces highly dimensional compared to the Nokton and similar Leica offerings. In fact, it features a contemporary lens design in a super-compact housing. Many modern lenses from other manufacturers show a similar rendering which I’m not fond of in the 35mm class. Noses tend to be too pronounced, heads tend to look a bit on the egg side etc. 

The Nokton and the Summicron ASPH render faces considerably more flattering (the latter despite its modern asymmetrical design and aspheric element) which I prefer. 

If that's a non-issue, the 35mm Color Skopar f 2,5 is a great little lens with some ergonomic downsides due to its small size. You can't have everything. 

[hansvons]

32 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

in fact I await today the delivery of the new VM 28 Skopar

Will you shoot the 28 Skopar on film? If so, let me know how the vignetting will be at full aperture. Thanks!

[Greenhilltony]

8 minutes ago, hansvons said:

I’d like to hear what you will say about the 35mm Skopar.

I have it too, but will sell it. The reason is that it renders faces highly dimensional compared to the Nokton and similar Leica offerings. In fact, it features a contemporary lens design in a super-compact housing. Many modern lenses from other manufacturers show a similar rendering which I’m not fond of in the 35mm class. Noses tend to be too pronounced, heads tend to look a bit on the egg side etc. 

The Nokton and the Summicron ASPH render faces considerably more flattering (the latter despite its modern asymmetrical design and aspheric element) which I prefer. 

If that's a non-issue, the 35mm Color Skopar f 2,5 is a great little lens with some ergonomic downsides due to its small size. You can't have everything. 

Sounds like the 35 skopar has pinch distortion from your description of the “highly dimensional face rendering”. I was considering it when I purchased the first 35mm lens, eventually chose the Ultron because I thought the Skopar ergonomics wouldn’t be very fine due to its super-compact housing.

[hansvons]

18 minutes ago, Greenhilltony said:

Sounds like the 35 skopar has pinch distortion from your description of the “highly dimensional face rendering”.

Not that I know. The Skopar is well-corrected. How lenses render faces ist not necessarily dependent on their spherical corrections. It’s just there. And it can differ widely (in a delicate manner) from lens to lens. 

If you want, I can show you examples in the 50mm class. Haven’t done a side by side comparison yet with 35mm but I should, I guess. This is somewhat of an old hat in cinematography. Interestingly, here on the forums people tend not to look for that "feature". 

[Cobram]

26 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Not that I know. The Skopar is well-corrected. How lenses render faces ist not necessarily dependent on their spherical corrections. It’s just there. And it can differ widely (in a delicate manner) from lens to lens. 

If you want, I can show you examples in the 50mm class. Haven’t done a side by side comparison yet with 35mm but I should, I guess. This is somewhat of an old hat in cinematography. Interestingly, here on the forums people tend not to look for that "feature". 

Thank you for this comment. When refering to distortion I was not thinking of distorted straight lines (architecture etc.), but rather un-natural portraits, resulting in a strange feeling when looking at printed frame on wall. It was not meant by scientific, but rather very personal feeling. Somehow difficult to explain. Your an other comments of LUF members make me realize it is not an issue with Nokton 1.4. I use Leica for family stuff only and that's why I put importance on this possible issue.

Put it in another way: looking at beautiful woman with botox provoke similar feelings of "something is not right here". Just my 2c.

[Smudgerer]

2 hours ago, hansvons said:

Will you shoot the 28 Skopar on film? If so, let me know how the vignetting will be at full aperture. Thanks!

Well yes, right now I find I am switching away from digital and using film much more these days, even though in digital I do still have  M10-R, M10-M, M10-D plus a Q2-M, so yes way too many but they do still have their uses and are not worth selling as far as I am concerned, ( certainly not worth trading up to the M11 and whatever else succeeds it....I'm stopping Leica digital race at the M10 series ).

To answer your question yes the 28 and the 35 Skopars will mostly be used on my film M's. The new 28 I am looking forward to seeing, ( the lenses were supposed to be delivered today but have hit a DHL log-jam, so next week now ), the 35 Skopar I used to own a copy of but sold it last year, this re-ordering is to correct that mistake, it's a really fine little lens.

Regarding all the questions as to vignetting, aberration, distortion, correction, bokeh, blah blah blah and so on I am the wrong person to ask because mostly I don't give a damn about much of that, it's how a lens balances on a M, it's size and weight and yes it's useful relevant aperture for whatever the tasks demand and most importantly whether it gets out of the way and enables me to make the image that floats my boat and recent Voigtlanders are tending to tick that box for me more so now............As I've said recently here pretty much any lens made nowadays is "good enough" by a long chalk for most photographer's needs, there's very few new "duds" out there and all this nit-picking that goes on comparing whatever lens to another in such minuscule detail is like the difference between scratching your arse or tearing it to pieces.......

To answer the OP's question that launched all of this, I'd get the Voigtlander 35 Nokton Classic II SC ( for B&W film ) or MC (for digital and colour ), it will work nicely for you.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Smudgerer
spelling / additional stuff

[hansvons]

 

2 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

Regarding all the questions as to vignetting, aberration, distortion, correction, bokeh, blah blah blah and so on I am the wrong person to ask because mostly I don't give a damn about much of that, it's how a lens balances on a M, it's size and weight and yes it's useful relevant aperture for whatever the tasks demand and most importantly whether it gets out of the way and enables me to make the image that floats my boat and recent Voigtlanders are tending to tick that box for me more so now............As I've said recently here pretty much any lens made nowadays is "good enough" by a long chalk for most photographer's needs, there's very few new "duds" out there and all this nit-picking that goes on comparing whatever lens to another in such minuscule detail is like the difference between scratching your arse or tearing it to pieces.......

Cool.

---

Below are some quick and dirty nitpicking hand-held shots I shot today with an SL2-S. I never shoot charts. I mostly nitpick with humans in the frame, judging skin tones and face dimensionality because that makes a portrait from a lens point of view. All images have identical grading. All are shot at f 2,8 at the same distance, with no cropping.

First, the Summicron ASPH:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

This is the Nokton SC:

 

 

And now the Skopar for @Smudgerer:

 

The Voighländer lenses render cooler, especially the Nokton SC with a slight tint towards cyan. Both Voigtländers yield a harsher contrast. All of them are somewhat equally sharp at f 2,8. The Summicron shows the flattest rendering, the Nokton is in a similar ballpark but less so, and the Skopar renders faces more dimensional (like many modern lenses, especially zooms) and less flattering to my taste.

I haven't done that test on film, but I assume similarities and know for sure that vignetting is less pronounced. 

[Smudgerer]

55 minutes ago, hansvons said:

 

Cool.

---

Below are some quick and dirty nitpicking hand-held shots I shot today with an SL2-S. I never shoot charts. I mostly nitpick with humans in the frame, judging skin tones and face dimensionality because that makes a portrait from a lens point of view. All images have identical grading. All are shot at f 2,8 at the same distance, with no cropping.

First, the Summicron ASPH:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

This is the Nokton SC:

 

 

And now the Skopar for @Smudgerer:

 

The Voighländer lenses render cooler, especially the Nokton SC with a slight tint towards cyan. Both Voigtländers yield a harsher contrast. All of them are somewhat equally sharp at f 2,8. The Summicron shows the flattest rendering, the Nokton is in a similar ballpark but less so, and the Skopar renders faces more dimensional (like many modern lenses, especially zooms) and less flattering to my taste.

I haven't done that test on film, but I assume similarities and know for sure that vignetting is less pronounced. 

Interesting series of comparisons, I assume the Skopar was the 35 Skopar? Thanks for doing this...............If I was into colour work I have to admit that the Summicron, ( presumably straight out of the camera (?) ), has the look I think I'd prefer out of your three examples here, but there's little between them in my opinion that couldn't be leveled out in post so that they'd mostly look the same to my eye, and wishes. Maybe if the Nokton was the MC instead of the SC the tones/colours would be closer to the Summicron?....Who knows?

However in B&W, which is where +95% of my personal images are made, I don't think you see any meaningful difference at all, certainly not in my work where focus and definition tends to take a back seat to the image itself. So if f2.5 could work for you a lot of €€€ could be saved by just going for the Skopar I guess! We'll see, or I should say, I'll see when mine arrives next week.

I still think though that the 1.4 Nokton is the best all-rounder pick.

Thanks again!.......Cheers!

[hansvons]

45 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

Interesting series of comparisons, I assume the Skopar was the 35 Skopar? Thanks for doing this.

Nada , I like to know what’s going in real-world applications. And yes, it’s the 35mm Color Skopar V2.

 

47 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

However in B&W, which is where +95% of my personal images are made, I don't think you see any meaningful difference at all, …

Absolutely. At f 5,6, the Nokton is sharp to the corners at infinity—on film.

 

48 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

I still think though that the 1.4 Nokton is the best all-rounder pick.

Yes. Especially if you factor in the price and the piece of mind when in rougher terrain. 

[raizans]

There’s the 40mm f/1.4 Nokton if you’re willing to trade a few mm for less distortion compared to the 35mm f/1.4 Nokton (especially nice if you’re making darkroom prints). After you mod the flange to bring up the 35mm framelines, they’ll be more accurate than usual as well.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[adan]

I used the 35 f/1.4 Nokton compact for a couple of years. Only bugs was the noticeable (3%) or so barrel distortion, and quite swirly corner textures down to f/5.6 or so (strong astigmatic coma.) "Focus shift" I rarely see at any time, since I either go for max. brightness/bokeh (f/1.4) or better overall/corner sharpness and DoF (f/5.6). I never use a lens "stopped down just a little" - don't see the point.)

So if native "distortion control" is critical, it may not be the best choice. One of the other C/Vs (large or small) may do better - as noted, Cosina does not publish charts and graphs.

OTOH, distortion is one of the easiest things to correct in scans or digital. Cosina may simply have chosen to let the lens distort more in order to reduce other aberrations. I just don't like having to stretch and squish the pixels around in post-processing.

The Leitz/Leica non-ASPH 35 f/1.4 (old or new) is very nice, and has zero linear distortion) - but its 0.9m focus limit just doesn't cut it for me. The "field of view" of a 35mm at 0.9m is even looser than a 28mm at 0.7m (lens extension factor).

Once I found a 6-bit coded version of the Leitz/Canada 35mm Summicron v.4 (also zero distortion, 0.7m focusing), I went back to that. But they are no longer the budget option they once were 😱 - my first (used) v.4 in 2001 cost only $650!

If one can accept slightly less crisp images, and occasional extra "glow" off-center, the v1/2/3 Leitz Summicrons are OK - and the v.2 is the tiniest ever.

[Greenhilltony]

I’m getting more and more into my lately purchased M3 for its viewfinder experience and the softer quieter shutter clicks. I’m using an M-Rokkor 40/2 on it mainly, the whole viewfinder trick is great for composing shots, and not to mention that I’m already quite used to shooting from hip with the 40mm focal length. So now I’m getting a bit interested in the Voigtlander 40/1.4 Nokton to gain one more stop in lowlight. It is much cheaper than its 35/1.4 Nokton brother as far as I know, and sharing the same optical design with 35/1.4 Nokton too? But many reviewer regarded it optically inferior to the M-Rokkor 40/2, in terms of wide open sharpness, distortion control and field flatness. The most serious critic is it gets softer in the middle frame range while sharper in center and near edges, due to the curved image field.