Q3 banding and other related issues ?

[Dipal]

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Hi folks! 
Not sure if anyone has noticed or can help guide me on this issue.

Please have a look at the attached files: There's severe lines that I can see popping up - see for example on the lady's dress.

Also the restaurant photo is really bad - look at the lines at the bottom part of the image (see next image in comments)

These photos are shot in dark environment but with enough existing light conditions.

However the ISO is 6400 and to see a 9000 SGD camera doing this is not good.

 

Any suggestions ?

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[Dipal]

Restaurant scene for your horror! 

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[StefanoGili]

Did you use electronic shutter? Usually the banding effect is caused by the artificial light frequencies and is visible when you use electronic shutter...

[Dipal]

47 minutes ago, StefanoGili said:

Did you use electronic shutter? Usually the banding effect is caused by the artificial light frequencies and is visible when you use electronic shutter...

My shutter is set to Hybrid. May be you're right

[goodbokeh]

I think your Q3 is OK. The PDAF designed sensor is to blame, this happens with other camera brands also. Sometimes this banding issue can be fixed/reduced by firmware. Banding was an early problem and firmware fixed on the Fuji GFX 100, it has the same generation Sony sensor that's in your Q3. BTW, keep an eye out for PDAF sensor flare when shooting strong backlit scenes. Yes, it's not all sweetness and light leaving behind the Q2's 47MP CDAF sensor.

Edited August 12, 2023 by goodbokeh
more info added.

[LocalHero1953]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:13 PM, Dipal said:

My shutter is set to Hybrid. May be you're right

If it was set to hybrid, then in low light it would not use the electronic shutter, which only kicks in at fast shutter speeds.  What shutter speed was it? 

[SrMi]

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On 8/10/2023 at 5:28 AM, Dipal said:

Hi folks! 
Not sure if anyone has noticed or can help guide me on this issue.

Please have a look at the attached files: There's severe lines that I can see popping up - see for example on the lady's dress.

Also the restaurant photo is really bad - look at the lines at the bottom part of the image (see next image in comments)

These photos are shot in dark environment but with enough existing light conditions.

However the ISO is 6400 and to see a 9000 SGD camera doing this is not good.

 

Any suggestions ?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The width of the bands indicates high-frequency light, but it should not be visible when using the leaf shutter. Can you share the raw file?

[SrMi]

On 8/10/2023 at 5:28 AM, Dipal said:

Restaurant scene for your horror! 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

This image has these weird vertical black lines. Were you shooting through a window?

[Dipal]

On 8/13/2023 at 7:16 AM, SrMi said:

This image has these weird vertical black lines. Were you shooting through a window?

No, this is the scene as it is and that's why it is weird. 

[Dipal]

On 8/13/2023 at 7:14 AM, SrMi said:

The width of the bands indicates high-frequency light, but it should not be visible when using the leaf shutter. Can you share the raw file?

Let me try to get the RAW file and share a link with you guys here. 

[jaapv]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:06 AM, goodbokeh said:

I think your Q3 is OK. The PDAF designed sensor is to blame, this happens with other camera brands also. Sometimes this banding issue can be fixed/reduced by firmware. Banding was an early problem and firmware fixed on the Fuji GFX 100, it has the same generation Sony sensor that's in your Q3. BTW, keep an eye out for PDAF sensor flare when shooting strong backlit scenes. Yes, it's not all sweetness and light leaving behind the Q2's 47MP CDAF sensor.

Sensor flare AKA red dot flare is not a specific PDAF issue. You can get it even on film, rarely, but more so on any sensor. It is a reflection off the shiny surface of the recording medium bounced back by the rear element of the lens. 
PDAF pixels don’t reflect anything. They are behind the cover glass and microlenses. 

[nicci78]

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/on-sensor-pdaf-misconceptions/
 

looks like PDAF banding on Nikon cameras. Hence the black lines. A bad software choice from manufacturers to mitigate PDAF striping. 
 

 

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Sensor flare AKA red dot flare is not a specific PDAF issue. You can get it even on film, rarely, but more so on any sensor. It is a reflection off the shiny surface of the recording medium bounced back by the rear element of the lens. 
PDAF pixels don’t reflect anything. They are behind the cover glass and microlenses. 

PDAF sensor are not behind the cover glass and micro lenses. They are part of the micro lenses array : blocking light from certain blue pixels to estimate distance.

The sensor beneath is always the same. Only the cover glass is made with PDAF masks among the bayer or X-Trans filter.

Hence the unwanted reflections aka PDAF striping. 

[jaapv]

OK. Not behind the microlenses but on the back of them. And there is the IR filter and sometimes AA filter. The flare and banding is also present on the sensors of the M series. We had several threads on the subject. What is your explanation? 

[beewee]

It definitely looks like something related to sensor scanning and use of electronic shutter as you can see that the lines on the outer edges are curved due to distortion correction. If lens distortion correction was not applied, they should be straight.

However, I don’t think the banding is light source dependent as the banding goes across the entire frame and there are many different sources of light in the scene and they all contribute to the banding. 

I also don’t think it’s PDAF related as PDAF pixels are spread across the entire sensor whereas we’re only seeing 5 well defined and equally spaced bands.

I don’t have a good hypothesis as to the cause of this but I’d definitely want Leica to look into this. A good controlled test is to enable electronic shutter and shoot a natural light scene with the exact same settings and see if banding occurs. If it does, then it’s definitely a camera problem and not a lighting problem.

[SrMi]

PDAF banding (dark lines) and PDAF striping (bright lines) may sometimes appear in sensors with OSPDAF. Most cameras with OSPDAF do not show any banding or striping (e.g., GFX100s does not show any banding, per Jim Kasson).

This post explains it well:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65694979

Excerpts:

"In my experience, the read and photon noise at high ISOs -- say above 640 -- are sufficient to swamp out the PDAF banding with the Z7."

"How can you tell the PDAF banding from the more generic kind? PDAF banding occurs with the spacing of the OSPDAF rows."

 

[goodbokeh]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

Sensor flare AKA red dot flare is not a specific PDAF issue. You can get it even on film, rarely, but more so on any sensor. It is a reflection off the shiny surface of the recording medium bounced back by the rear element of the lens. 
PDAF pixels don’t reflect anything. They are behind the cover glass and microlenses. 

jaapv, we seem to go around the mulberry bush on this issue don't we. Sensor grid flare does not just happen to PDAF sensored cameras. But it does happen more often. That is my direct experience owning cameras with Sony's current 60/102MP generation PDAF sensor which the Q3 has a variant of and the OP owns. On an earlier SL thread I posted a photo example of this. There, I also showed a M10-R & 18 Super Elmar photo with no sensor grid flare that I know would have produce strong flare results with my Sony sensored cameras.

There are simple workarounds to check for sensor grid flare. Like chimping in the EVF when shooting in strong backlight. But the first step is knowing, not denying, the problem can exist and looking for it on site. Not discovering it as a surprise when back home.

I don't know if the Q3 will produce sensor grid flare or not. I understand it can also be lens dependent and also the Q is a unique design. Maybe someone on this forum will check for that and show Q3 examples.

[SrMi]

27 minutes ago, goodbokeh said:

jaapv, we seem to go around the mulberry bush on this issue don't we. Sensor grid flare does not just happen to PDAF sensored cameras. But it does happen more often. That is my direct experience owning cameras with Sony's current 60/102MP generation PDAF sensor which the Q3 has a variant of and the OP owns. On an earlier SL thread I posted a photo example of this. There, I also showed a M10-R & 18 Super Elmar photo with no sensor grid flare that I know would have produce strong flare results with my Sony sensored cameras.

There are simple workarounds to check for sensor grid flare. Like chimping in the EVF when shooting in strong backlight. But the first step is knowing, not denying, the problem can exist and looking for it on site. Not discovering it as a surprise when back home.

I don't know if the Q3 will produce sensor grid flare or not. I understand it can also be lens dependent and also the Q is a unique design. Maybe someone on this forum will check for that and show Q3 examples.

PDAF banding is not dependent on the sensor but on the manufacturer's implementation of "hiding" PDAF sensors. Most cameras have no issues with PDAF banding or striping.

Fuji GFX100S has no banding caused by OSPDAF. Whatever you are observing is something else. 

[jaapv]

54 minutes ago, goodbokeh said:

jaapv, we seem to go around the mulberry bush on this issue don't we. Sensor grid flare does not just happen to PDAF sensored cameras. But it does happen more often. That is my direct experience owning cameras with Sony's current 60/102MP generation PDAF sensor which the Q3 has a variant of and the OP owns. On an earlier SL thread I posted a photo example of this. There, I also showed a M10-R & 18 Super Elmar photo with no sensor grid flare that I know would have produce strong flare results with my Sony sensored cameras.

There are simple workarounds to check for sensor grid flare. Like chimping in the EVF when shooting in strong backlight. But the first step is knowing, not denying, the problem can exist and looking for it on site. Not discovering it as a surprise when back home.

I don't know if the Q3 will produce sensor grid flare or not. I understand it can also be lens dependent and also the Q is a unique design. Maybe someone on this forum will check for that and show Q3 examples.

I see a similar discussion like purple fringing.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[goodbokeh]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

PDAF banding is not dependent on the sensor but on the manufacturer's implementation of "hiding" PDAF sensors. Most cameras have no issues with PDAF banding or striping.

Fuji GFX100S has no banding caused by OSPDAF. Whatever you are observing is something else. 

I'm not about banding (or striping) like the OP was having problems with. I'm talking about sensor grid flare. This is a photo from my Fuji 100S:

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