50 mm Shopping: Where to Start Research?

[RayD28]

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@Bobonli I'd make a list of things you want from the lens.  How fast?  How much do you want to pay?  Are you open to non-Leica brands?  What finish?  What ergonomics are important (size, weight, focus tab, hood, etc.). Is bokeh important?  And so on.

Finally, if what you want does not fit your budget, and you really want it, don't buy.  Save your money (or rob a bank) and get what you really want when you can afford it.  

PS -- you bought a 35 Cron, which is a fine lens (I have one also).  What methodology did you use to arrive at that purchase?  

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[spydrxx]

On the research side, not cost, but characteristics...I'd suggest reading Erwin Puts" analyses of 50mm lenses (and how they are manufactured and produced, as well as he physics of aberrations in lenses). It is dry stuff, but totally invaluable. Then you can hone in on which 50 in Leica's history of 50mm lens production appeals most to you. After that is price and availability. Or you can just forget it all and go to a Leica shop, try their selection and select whatever appeals most to you.

[BradS]

I don't think you can go wrong with any version of the 50mm Summicron.  If buying used, the condition of the individual will be far more significant than version.

[lct]

1 hour ago, spydrxx said:

Or you can just forget it all and go to a Leica shop, try their selection and select whatever appeals most to you.

+1 or even more simply do what most of us have been doing at some point, get a current Summicron apo or non apo depending on budget or if both are too expensive, the Planar 50/2 can compete with them easily.

[RexGig0]

Buying older versions of lenses, sight unseen, is something that prefer to avoid. (I have done so, but very carefully.) One person’s “clear and clean” might well be another person’s “internal haze and dust.” If one lives near B&H, one is near a large pool of pre-owned lenses, from many sources, that can be seen and/or tested, before buying. I own no vintage Leica M 50mm lenses, so, am not qualified to say much about the various earlier versions.

Notably, the Versions IV and V of the Summicron have the same optical element formula, designed by Walter Mandler, unchanged since 1979. There are good reasons that this Summicron has endured, in the product line, so long. Coatings, on the glass, have evolved, since 1979. I am not personally qualified to address the differences in coatings. I bought a 50-Jahre (50-Year) Special Edition, pre-owned, before that edition became a desirable collectible, because I liked its exterior visual appearance, and reasoned, correctly, that I would prefer its handling. (I would rather not use a focus tab, with a 50mm lens.) This edition’s date is in the Version V era, as defined by Leica users and collectors. (Leica, itself, does not distinguish between Version IV, and Version V.)

The Summulux-M 50mm ASPH, 2004 version, has Floating Lens Elements, for optically-better-corrected images at close range. When I was first able to justify the expense of buying into the Leica M system, I started with this version of the Summilux, acquired pre-owned, at the nearby Houston Camera Exchange, a Leica dealer, in Texas. Some criticize the Summilux ASPH as being “too modern,” but, I see plenty of character. The background blur, when shot at widest or near-widest aperture, is particularly distinctive.

I live where the temperature can still be about 95 F, (which is ~35 C, if I remember correctly,) at sundown, for much of the year. I knew, from DSLR shooting, that a “fast” lens was good for shooting indoors, and during the evenings, outdoors. So, it was worth it, for me, to pay “Summilux money,” when I started using Leica equipment, especially because I thought that I would be starting with an M Type 240, which could not use high ISO settings as comfortably as DSLRs of that day. (I had not yet learned about the high-ISO capability of the M Type 246 Monochrom.) Plus, I was considering buying an MP, at that early stage, to complement whatever digital M camera I acquired.

Of course, still having my DSLRs, and lenses as “fast” as f/1.2, I did not “need” a Summilux-M 50mm lens. I did, however, desire the “character” that I saw, in Summilux images, captured and posted by others, shot wide-open. Having become so accustomed to the extremely-well-corrected macro lenses that I had used for forensic/crime scene photography, I wanted some of that character, even though I did not yet understand that that I was seeing the result of slight optical imperfections that the design team, led by Peter Karbe, had chosen to leave uncorrected, in favor of correcting other aspects of the optics. As I see it, this is the “magic” of Leica lenses, optical design choices made by the Leica designers.

Owning both the 2004 Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, and the current-version Summicron-M 50mm, I feel no bias, or agenda, when supporting either lens. Neither is optically “perfect.” The Summicron is less costly, weighs less, is smaller, and is more convenient. The Summilux is costlier, heavier, larger, can be less convenient, but can provide a rendering that is different from every other lens, on the planet.

Some shooters are dedicated to Walter Mandler lenses. Some are fans of Peter Karbe, and lenses designed by him, and/or his design team. There are forums discussions of both lens designers.

An M camera, hanging by its strap, will be pulled downward, in the front, by the leverage of the weight of a Summilux-M ASPH. A Summicron exerts less leverage. I do not see either as a problem. I can simply rotate the Summilux-equipped camera so that it faces the ground. Stability achieved. The outer element and hood are better-protected from collisions with walls, posts, and other vertical things. Done. (I wear the strap over my right shoulder, cross-body style.)

If out and about in bright light, and not anticipating a need for the distinctive Summilux background blur, I may well choose the Summicron.

The specific Summicron 35mm lens was not specified in the original post, but, logically, a photography who likes the 35mm Summicron would well-served by a 50mm Summicron. Owning no Summicron 35mm lenses, I am not prepared to “defend” this statement. I have simply noticed that quite a few Leica M shooters will have a set of Summicron lenses, in several of the focal lengths.

If one likes “bokeh balls,” it is important to research what each lens does, at each aperture. This is a matter taste. I am more concerned with general character of background blur, than the roundness of the “bokeh balls.” Notably, at least one Cosina/Voigtlander 50mm lens, the APO Lanthar VM, has aperture blades specifically designed to render perfectly round bokeh balls, at specific apertures. I do not own this Voigtlander lens, but do have a few others. There is nothing “wrong” with choosing Voigtlander VM, or Zeiss ZM lenses.

I should specify that I am still a relative beginner, with the Leica M system, having started in 2018, with an M10. My formal training was in the “genre” of evidentiary/forensic/crime scene photography, with DSLRs being mandated equipment. 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by RexGig0

[RexGig0]

I should add that some shooters do not see the “character” in images shot with a Summilux. There is nothing wrong with that. Artistic taste should not be judged. Such shooters should simply opt for other 50mm lenses, and, if applicable, choose a film, or sensor, that does not need that extra stop of light.

There is more to Summilux “character” than just the background blur. Being an inarticulate, artless person, I have a difficult time describing this, so, I cannot really “defend” this statement. For that matter, I see character, and imperfection, in Summicron images, too, that is different than Summilux character. Both Leica lenses render images that are different from my favored Nikon F-mount normal-range lens, the Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8G, which is, obviously a “modern” lens, intended to be clinically sharp. (I rarely used 50mm Nikon lenses, partly because 50mm seemed uninspiring, at the time, and partly because my wife, a long-time Nikon enthusiast, always seemed to keep them, for herself.) 

[a.noctilux]

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Summilux 50mm any model is winner lens.

In my use I give the pre-asph. (Summilux 50mm E46, 70cm mfd) five stars.

[Bobonli]

Oh my goodness, a lot of thoughtful responses. Thank you all. Let me try to address some questions raised in the responses.

I prefer compact, black finish. The whole point of the M, for me, is the small walk-around factor compared to other things I own. I also think the images from the Leica glass speaks to me, makes me want to go make pictures more so than my digital rig. I prefer a retractable hood. One less thing to remember to attach.

My 35 was selected because it was available, in near mint condition at a price I could tolerate. The previous owner probably rarely had it out of the house. I mentioned I'm risk averse and don't want to get involved in  arguing over condition and, as such, I just found the 35 with the highest rating from a shop I'd dealt with in the past. Keep in mind I had a version of this lens several years ago. I also rented a 50 years ago, but cannot recall what version beyond the fact it had a retractable hood. I like the tab, but it's not 'required."

I've been looking at prices and, yes, it seems that the fastest route would be to go into NYC and buy a new lens, given some of the used prices I see. 

My comment about B&H was this: they are a large dealer. They don't haggle in my experience. They can charge whatever they want because there are people like me who are relatively lazy and will walk in off the street rather than do some research; people who don't want to run the risk of being scammed or robbed as part of a CL scam (a thing that happens here in NY is "meet me at this location to do the transaction" and you get robbed instead). 

No burning desire to enter the aperture wars. 

 

[a.noctilux]

Said Summilux-M 50mm has sliding hood (a bit short but it's there), the balance with M body is so good that the weighty lens seems light.

We can find in three colors, black, silver and titanium coated (heavy !) like this one

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[dpitt]

Summicron 50 v5 has a sliding hood. It is the only pre-ASPH and non APO 50 with a built in hood. I often use my v4 Summicron 50 without hood. It does not flare very often. On some occasions I shoot with one hand and hold the other to block the sun. Older vintage versions like the Rigid and Collapsible flare more easily.

YMMV, the weather in Belgium is often cloudy 🙂

[lct]

I have mixed feelings about built-in hoods, as far as 50mm lenses are concerned. Either they are vestigial with little flare protection (Summilux v3, Summicron v5) or they slide too easily with little mechanical protection (ditto) or the least shock can render them unusable (Summicron apo, Summilux asph v1). A sturdy bayonet hood a-la-Planar is finally what i prefer although the reversibility of the good old 12585 Leica may miss me. A better compromise, to me, would be a reversible bayonet hoods a-la-Nokton 75 or Skopar 90 but i don't know if there are any for 50mm lenses.

[IkarusJohn]

If you can track down a copy of Erwin Puts Leica Compendium, there’s a wealth of information there.  His blog used to be online, but I’m not sure if it is still available (he died a few years ago).

I love 50s.  For film, I’d go with the 50 Summilux ASPH (the first version, not the re-issue) - for Leica, it’s reasonably priced and it an excellent lens.  The focus tab can be a little stiff (with the FLE), but if you work it back and forth, it becomes buttery smooth,  It has a retractable hood, and the black version isn’t too heavy (I have the silver chrome, brass one, and it is a keeper - some find it too heavy).

The 50 Summicron (non-APO) is well loved - have a look at Thorsten Overgaard’s website - he loves this lens.  You can’t really go wrong with Leica 50s. I’m currently using a 1948 Summitar 50/2 LTM on my M-A and I’m enjoying it very much.

[Bobonli]

36 minutes ago, lct said:

I have mixed feelings about built-in hoods, as far as 50mm lenses are concerned. Either they are vestigial with little flare protection (Summilux v3, Summicron v5) or they slide too easily with little mechanical protection (ditto) or the least shock can render them unusable (Summicron apo, Summilux asph v1). A sturdy bayonet hood a-la-Planar is finally what i prefer although the reversibility of the good old 12585 Leica may miss me. A better compromise, to me, would be a reversible bayonet hoods a-la-Nokton 75 or Skopar 90 but i don't know if there are any for 50mm lenses.

Hmm. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective, only from that of convenience: It's always there, nothing extra to attach or misplace.

[Bobonli]

‘Cron v4 is sort of in the lead right now but still looking at all those links and images. Compact size, good image quality, removable hood (seen some reviews saying the v5 hood can get sticky or too loose such that it doesn’t really protect the front of lens), modern design. Yes, a Lux would be nice for certain situations but I don’t think I’d reap its benefits when weighed against compact size. The form factor, the ability of the rig to basically disappear, is important to me. 

[rcusick]

1 hour ago, Bobonli said:

‘Cron v4 is sort of in the lead right now but still looking at all those links and images. Compact size, good image quality, removable hood (seen some reviews saying the v5 hood can get sticky or too loose such that it doesn’t really protect the front of lens), modern design. Yes, a Lux would be nice for certain situations but I don’t think I’d reap its benefits when weighed against compact size. The form factor, the ability of the rig to basically disappear, is important to me. 

I just rebought a late German version.  I love the colors… beautiful. 

[Jeff S]

Biggest issue with the current 50 Summicron IMO is having to exercise caution to avoid flare. The 50 Summilux ASPH v.1 replaced my Summicron many years ago and I see no need to replace it; a favorite.  I prefer it to the 50 APO Summicron that I tried, and have absolutely no need, as an RF-only M user, for the close focus mechanism on the new Summilux ASPH version.
 

I make lens choices based on actual use and by making prints. There are more characteristics than rendering for me when choosing a lens… ergonomics, handling, controls, etc… which aren’t apparent from the specs, and which are subject to personal preference (and sometimes sample variation).  YMMV.

Jeff

Edited August 9, 2023 by Jeff S

[lct]

Summilux asph lenses are significantly more expensive than non apo Summicrons. To avoid flare at affordable prices, better get a ZM lens like Planar 50/2 or Sonnar 50/1.5 but the latter suffers from focus shift more so than v4 or v5 Summicrons. 

[RexGig0]

Jimmy Cheng’s comparison video is reasonably short, and shows the comparative flare resistance of the Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar:

 

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[hansvons]

6 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Biggest issue with the current 50 Summicron IMO is having to exercise caution to avoid flares.

I never understood why flares are seen as an “issue”.

In cinematography, flares are recognised as a virtue. The question is how they look and how easily they can be provoked, or not. When I become interested in a particular lens, its flares and how it renders faces are on the top of the list. And, of course, sharp corners @f5,6 at infinity are important, too. 

The v4 does all of that. And the flares need to be provoked. The lens is not prone to flaring. And when they appear, they look gorgeous.

[lct]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

And the flares need to be provoked. The lens is not prone to flaring. And when they appear, they look gorgeous.

Different experience here. Problem with v4 and v5 are unexpected flares when strong light sources like the sun are outside the frame. It is not an issue in LV mode as flare is visible in the EVF or on the LCD then but newbies (even oldies?) car get trapped in RF mode by less-than-gorgeous flares like these:

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