Calibration rangefinder Summaron 35 f2.8

[Marco Slavazza]

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Hello, I'm a new Leica (M3) owner, purchased together with a Summaron 35mm f2.8 with goggles.

 

The camera's rangefinder works perfectly, while the lens doesn't focus (the rangefinder isn't calibrated, it doesn't match the measurement on the barrel and the rangefinder doesn't reach infinity).

anyone can help me? what can I do? Is the rangefinder calibratable without having to send it in for repair?

 

by the way I was wondering, but to use it, do I consider the scale on the optics correct or what I see in the rangefinder?

[jaapv]

In this case the trouble is most likely with the lens. The camera is never calibrated to a lens, nor a lens to the camera. Both are to be adjusted to the common standard. Send both camera and lens( which is probably the culprit) to your preferred Leica repair service. BTW if it is a lens with removable goggles it will be wildly inaccurate without them. 

[dpitt]

I think the Summaron is showing exceptional behaviour compared to regular Leica M lenses. Your lens may be working as intended by Leica.

I have one that is focusing correctly if I use the RF as reference. Pictures are sharp where you expect them to be. The scale on the lens does not reflect the actual distance of the focused object, like all my other M lenses do. I found it works fine on my M9 as long as you do not mind the scale.

Maybe this has something to do with the begin years of these goggled lenses. I suppose the lens barrels were designed with a scale to be used without goggles and then they were used for goggled lenses like yours and mine. Because of the goggles magnification of about 0.7 the RF mechanism needs to be calibrated differently. Some, more technically savvy members may correct me if I am wrong.

[Marco Slavazza]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

In questo caso il problema è molto probabilmente con l'obiettivo. La fotocamera non è mai calibrata su un obiettivo, né un obiettivo sulla fotocamera. Entrambi devono essere adeguati allo standard comune. Invia sia la fotocamera che l'obiettivo (che è probabilmente il colpevole) al tuo servizio di riparazione Leica preferito. A proposito, se si tratta di un obiettivo con occhiali rimovibili, senza di essi sarà estremamente impreciso. 

I know with certainty that the problem is the goal and not the machine. The Summaron has the correct mounted goggles, I have never been removed, it is his rangefinder that has definitely been. I was asking if someone knew how to do it at home or if I have to go to a repairer.

 

40 minutes ago, dpitt said:

Penso che il Summaron stia mostrando un comportamento eccezionale rispetto ai normali obiettivi Leica M. Il tuo obiettivo potrebbe funzionare come previsto da Leica

What do you mean? That for Leica it is correct that the rangefinder has been with respect to the scale?

 

42 minutes ago, dpitt said:

Ne ho uno che mette a fuoco correttamente se uso la RF come riferimento. Le immagini sono nitide dove ti aspetti che siano. La scala sull'obiettivo non riflette la distanza effettiva dell'oggetto messo a fuoco, come fanno tutti gli altri miei obiettivi M. Ho scoperto che funziona bene sul mio M9 purché non ti dispiaccia

That is, do you use what you see in the rangefinder because the scale on the barrel is wrong? And for infinity do the same thing and see where it is in the sights even if it does not reach full scale? For hyperfocal how do you adjust without a box?

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Marco Slavazza said:

I know with certainty that the problem is the goal and not the machine. The Summaron has the correct mounted goggles, I have never been removed, it is his rangefinder that has definitely been. I was asking if someone knew how to do it at home or if I have to go to a repairer.

 

How do you know? Optical bench or verified body and lens? If you actually read my post, you'll find that it comprehensively answers the question that you are asking.

FYI: There are three variants of the Summaron: with fixed goggles, with removable goggles and without goggles.

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, dpitt said:

I think the Summaron is showing exceptional behavior compared to regular Leica M lenses. Your lens may be working as intended by Leica.

I have one that is focusing correctly if I use the RF as reference. Pictures are sharp where you expect them to be. The scale on the lens does not reflect the actual distance of the focused object, like all my other M lenses do. I found it works fine on my M9 as long as you do not mind the scale.

Maybe this has something to do with the begin years of these goggled lenses. I suppose the lens barrels were designed with a scale to be used without goggles and then they were used for goggled lenses like yours and mine. Because of the goggles magnification of about 0.7 the RF mechanism needs to be calibrated differently. Some, more technically savvy members may correct me if I am wrong.

The RF does not need to be corrected for use with the goggles, one could not use any other lens on the camera in that case. If it behaves like that, the lens needs to be adjusted. 

[Marco Slavazza]

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4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Come fai a sapere? Banco ottico o corpo e lente verificati? Se leggi effettivamente il mio post, scoprirai che risponde in modo esauriente alla domanda che stai ponendo.

Cordiali saluti: Esistono tre varianti del Summaron: con occhiali fissi, con occhiali rimovibili e senza occhiali.

I know with certainty because the M3 has been overhauled and officially recorded by an official Leica center in Milan (and because I found with three other lenses and the rangefinder is perfect).For the same reason I know that the Summaron is in the version with non-demountable goggle but unlike the machine, this was sold to me as functional but without any calibration certification.

M But then, until I can have it overhauled correctly, how do you think I should adjust? Do I use what I see in the viewfinder with the rangefinder or the scale on the barrel?

[jaapv]

As I said in my post the lens is the most likely culprit. If you are 100% sure it is only the lens, send it to a repair service. There is nothing you can do yourself. There a a number of things that could be wrong. It may be that it must be reshimmed, it may be that a previous owner tried to repair or clean it and  reassembled it improperly, iit may even be that somebody in the past attempted to use it without goggles and ground down the helicoid. Only an expert can tell and repair. 
I the meantime you can only experiment. I would start by trusting the rangefinder but try the barrel  markings  as well and have test film developed. 

[dpitt]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

The RF does not need to be corrected for use with the goggles, one could not use any other lens on the camera in that case. If it behaves like that, the lens needs to be adjusted. 

The camera RF does not need to be corrected. That is right.

I bought this lens with a defect goggles set (one optical element missing). The goggles are removable, so my first idea was to use it without goggles. Now that does not work, even if I use a trick to undo the infinity lock that is engaged when the goggles are not on.

Will van Manen explained to me that if I remove the goggles (which can be done on this model) it will throw off the RF because it is missing the correction lens in front of both optical windows of the RF system. That is the whole point why there are 2 lenses needed in the goggles anyway. He told me that without goggles, if I align the patch correctly in the finder on a certain object, the distance the lens is focused on will not be the object I saw in the finder patch.

Then it is my own conclusion that this might have something to do with the scale on the lens being wrong even when used with goggles and focused correctly. Not sure if this is intended behavior or that someone tinkered with this lens in the past. Unfortunately I acquired these working goggles just recently, and I did not discuss the scale issue with Will yet. I know that Leica developed 35mm lenses for the M3 in a hurry during the first years (1954-1957). The increased demand for 35mm lenses took them by surprise and they had to come with a solution for M3 users. Maybe that is why there where some corners cut in this period before the M2 came out in 1957.

Technically, I do not mind the scale issue much. If I want to use zone focus, I can always pre-focus the RF at a certain distance.

Edited July 23, 2023 by dpitt

[jaapv]

6 minutes ago, dpitt said:

I bought this lens with a defect goggles set (one optical element missing). The goggles are removable, so my first idea was to use it without goggles. Now that does not work, even if I use a trick to undo the infinity lock that is engaged when the goggles are not on.

 

That is to be expected. The helicoid is different for a goggled lens. It will only be correct at infinity.