New to M11. Sharpness and detail issues. Haze, CA at wide aperture

[ColdShower]

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My first post. So I've been shooting with Sony and Canon and Nikon Cameras since the early days of digital. Often I adapt vintage lenses to my mirrorless because I like the look I get while still getting sharp images even with my FD canon glass.
 

So after shooting for two years with the Q2 I pulled the trigger on an M11 with a Summilux 35 and 50mm F1.4 II. What attracts me the most about the system is the high MP for print, the manual approach and the compactness of the glass.
I mainly shoot portraits and street photography and I love to shoot focus manually and wide open.

After reviewing a few thousand images taken with these lenses I find that while the images are in focus, they are supper hazy, with loads of CA and lack of details.The moment I zoom in I can see the imperfections and for print these imperfections show up.
I discussed this with other Leica shooters and they claim that these aberrations are the "dreamy look". But while I get the dreamy look from my adapted Canon FD glass on my Sony A1, I still get details very sharp.

I'm usually uber skeptical when buying something new and usually I rent first, but being Leica I didn't even thought it twice.

Is it possible that in order to get a sharp image with  "fast" Summilux glass I have to stop down to f5.6-f8? The reason why I went with the f1.4 is to shoot at 1.4.
I also have a Summicron 50mm f2 and i do get slightly  better results in terms of sharpness and lack of haze in my images when shooting at f2.

 

This are SOOC - AWB shot at f1.4 with some shadow lifts so you can see the details.

 

 

 

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Edited July 20, 2023 by ColdShower

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[jaapv]

All these examples are perfectly sharp in the plane of focus, and show perfectly normal out of focus areas.

That is the way images made wide open with a fast lens look and the reason that people use them.  There is nothing wrong with your gear. 

You are seeing the way that a high-resolution sensor manages to record everything an older lens can render. You would probably be more happy with a modern APO lens with its more precise look.

[thighslapper]

As with Jaap ...... from my experience most of the Summilux lenses exhibit this at f1.4. It's a trade off between extreme narrow DOF and the concomitant aberrations that go with it. Just try a Noctilux and you will see just how bad things can get wide open in the wrong circumstances  ..... 

The Apo 50/2 is pretty well faultless at f2 and still gives a narrow enough DOF to get the look you want ..... and is one of the sharpest Leica lenses I ever used. It does come at a wallet busting price though. 

f1.4 is for very specific conditions and artistic requirements ...... I don't think Leica ever envisaged using f1.4 as an aperture for general daylight snapping. Your car may be capable of 160mph but that's not what the manufacturers expect you to do all the time. 

ps. you also have to factor in the default sharpening applied to the RAW image ..... and this varies greatly between camera manufacturers. Simple OOC comparisons can be misleading. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by thighslapper

[jaapv]

Whilst I disagree that f1.4 is only for occasional use, a photographer should adapt his camera settings to his subject. Saying “I bought these lenses for their aperture and that is what I will use” is not rational and will lead to disappointment. 

[darylgo]

@ColdShowerWelcome to Leica and the forum.  Rangefinder cameras and Leica in particular will often times require effort to get optimum quality.  The first thing I do with a body is check rangefinder alignment.  Once a body is known to be aligned properly each lens is checked for compatibility with that body, i.e. rangefinder alignment.  By my rough estimate a 24mp camera improperly focused gives 6mp resolution and aberrations will increase.  Rarely, do I get new Leica equipment that doesn't require a trip to Leica for proper calibration.  The evf use makes this a moot point, yet all Leica lenses are not equal and if comparing different samples closely it becomes clear that subtleties exist, some are simply bad samples.  

A few other considerations, while you mention you shoot street and portraits your examples show landscapes, a more demanding subject.  60mp non ibis sensors require exceptional technique not unlike looking through binoculars and holding them steady.  The Q  has ibis and computational DNG's sooc, the M11 doesn't except for 6 bit changes.  Lastly, some members report issues with their particular M11 bodies at certain shutter speeds, similar to shutter bounce issues.  

 

[jaapv]

I never had calibration issues with new Leica cameras since the 1980ies. I would argue it is the exception rather than the rule and the OPs images are well-focused. However, 60 MP does amplify everything, from motion blur to lens aberrations, mainly caused bij the insane magnification at 100%. The main reason for the complaint I see is using the lenses indiscriminately outside their application envelope. 

[01maciel]

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To my eyes, there seems to be something wrong with the pictures shown. The first thing I would suspect is an incorrect white balance setting. My 35mm Summicron (latest version) shows similar behaviour on the M10

[spydrxx]

I'd say you failed to do your homework here. Suggest you read Erwin Puts' analyses of these lenses to understand their characteristics. If I've got the right versions from your text, they were designed for film rather than digital sensors. I too have and use Canon FD lenses on digital, and understand that they render differently on digital than Leica lenses of the era. The old adage that many lenses (not APO) are at their best stopped down 2 stops will probably resolve the sharpness issue for you even if it disappoints you in not shooting your chosen subjects (esp. landscape) wide open.

[jaapv]

Certainly. For instance the beach shot has a blue-cyan cast. I find that Canon LTM lenses perform very well in the digital age if you want the vintage look. Also some present-day Voigtländers are really nice. 
As a workaround, try the dehaze slider in Lightroom 

 

42 minutes ago, 01maciel said:

To my eyes, there seems to be something wrong with the pictures shown. The first thing I would suspect is an incorrect white balance setting. My 35mm Summicron (latest version) shows similar behaviour on the M10

 

[dkmoore]

2 hours ago, spydrxx said:

I'd say you failed to do your homework here. Suggest you read Erwin Puts' analyses of these lenses to understand their characteristics. If I've got the right versions from your text, they were designed for film rather than digital sensors. I too have and use Canon FD lenses on digital, and understand that they render differently on digital than Leica lenses of the era. The old adage that many lenses (not APO) are at their best stopped down 2 stops will probably resolve the sharpness issue for you even if it disappoints you in not shooting your chosen subjects (esp. landscape) wide open.

OP is using V2 lenses, optimized for digital. 

[Photoworks]

The Q2 lens is probably sharper at 1.7 than both of the lenses you got for the M11

But it would help if you considered the fact that Summilux lenses are two lenses in one. At 1.4 you get a settle "glow" and soft focus with superb out-of-focus rendering, something that many photographers are after. 
Once you go to f2 and above you will get incredible details.

Leica Sells the 50 Summilux FLE v2 for the first time as a high res version of the lens, in my opinion, the previous version is good too and still one of my favorite lenses.

If you are after greater sharpness the 50 Summicron APO is probably better.

Enjoy experimenting with your new camera.

 

https://www.instagram.com/kroke/

[Jeff S]

17 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

Leica Sells the 50 Summilux FLE v2 for the first time as a high res version of the lens, in my opinion, the previous version is good too and still one of my favorite lenses.

If you are after greater sharpness the 50 Summicron APO is probably better.

 

He owns the 50 Summilux ASPH v.2 and the 50 Summicron APO (according to his profile). The former adds aperture blades and close focus, not changes in the optical formula.

BTW, he doesn’t seem a first time poster to me. 😉

Jeff

Edited July 20, 2023 by Jeff S

[Photoworks]

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The former adds aperture blades and close focus, not changes in the optical formula.

but still improved image quality on the  v2 in the center and corners

[spydrxx]

1 hour ago, dkmoore said:

OP is using V2 lenses, optimized for digital. 

As I read his profile and posting it appears the 35 Summilux the OP owns is the V1, the design of which was film based, rather than the V2 which was digital based, although the 50 Summilux is definitely is V2.

[Huss]

Are you focusing w the rangefinder or evf?  If the evf then the issue may be your technique may need to be modified as the Leica does not have IBIS etc.  If with rangefinder, your rangefinder may need adjusting.

You should put your camera on a tripod and compare focus/sharpness of the same scene focused with the rf, and focused with the evf (or rear screen if you don’t have the clip on evf).

Unlike Jaapv I have seen plenty of brand new M cameras with slightly misaligned RFs straight from the factory.  Leica is notorious for lack of QA.

[jaapv]

Leica is notorious for building by hand. It is near-impossible to implement a highly effective QA for random human error. Robot-built appliances easy to get into a near-100% QA, as the production line makes  systematic errors which can be caught by sampling and testing to destruction during the production process. 

[Huss]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Leica is notorious for building by hand. It is near-impossible to implement a highly effective QA for random human error. Robot-built appliances easy to get into a near-100% QA, as the production line makes  systematic errors which can be caught by sampling and testing to destruction during the production process. 

When Leica recently shipped a whole bunch of the new 35 FLE II lenses with broken aperture blades, that any basic QA process would have picked up, that excuse falls apart.  And each one of those lenses had that little signed quality inspection card!

[thighslapper]

3 hours ago, Huss said:

Unlike Jaapv I have seen plenty of brand new M cameras with slightly misaligned RFs straight from the factory.  Leica is notorious for lack of QA.

Both RF and lenses are calibrated to a tolerance range ...... a precise point is just not possible with the mechanical linkages between lens, camera and rangefinder. 

I defy anyone to buy half a dozen Leica lenses and get all of them to be exactly calibrated with their camera body for near, mid distance, infinity and absolute precise focussing, particularly wide open. 

Couple that with a high resolution sensor and no stabilisation and you have plenty of room for errors unless you have good technique and compensate for these factors.

It was the main reason I gave up RF Leicas ...... although I have recently returned to owning an M10 Monochrom which I know I can use at silly high ISO's to enable fast shutter speeds and sensible apertures. 

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[pgk]

Hmmmm. The OP is rather vague on details. I await a second post before commenting further.

[TomSchmitt]

Hard to judge from the low res pics posted here. Yes, the Luxes at 1.4 show ‘dreaminess’. Practical advice #1: 60 MP are hard to hold still, set your min. speed to 1/500 and let Auto ISO do the rest and see if there is improvement. #2: Rent a Voigtlander 35 or 50 APO for a day and reshoot and compare the results with the luxes. Maybe you bought the wrong ‘character’ lenses for your taste.