35 lux FLE, unrealistic expectations ?

[lm28469]

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Hello, I just tried a few summilux fle in a leica store and I'm not sure what to think of the performance of the lens. Out of the three I tested two seemingly can't reach infinity, one back focuses enough to be annoying, another one the same but with front focus. Here are test shots at f5.6 (but at 4 or 8 it's about the same). Is the 35 fle sample variation that bad or did I test 3 lemons ? Somehow my 60 years old cron is sharper than all the fle

Here is my 1965 50 cron: https://i.imgur.com/MhX4O2A.jpeg

First FLE (used) I tested: https://i.imgur.com/3nla2cy.jpeg

Second FLE (used) : https://i.imgur.com/3nla2cy.jpeg

Third FLE (new): https://i.imgur.com/3hibd2W.jpeg

Comparison: https://i.imgur.com/dHlce20.jpeg

 

[pedaes]

19 minutes ago, lm28469 said:

60 years old cron is sharper than all the fle

If that is fact they must be lemons to be avoided. Personally never heard of front or back focus issues either. Is your rangefinder accurate?

 

[dynaerik]

Especially with the FLE (Floating Element) there shouldn't be the issue of front focusing. 

 

.... or you just saved some money

[TomB_tx]

A 60 year-old 50 Summicron is pretty hard to beat on resolution at f 5.6 - differences on more modern lenses show in other optical characteristics. 

I've avoided fle lenses myself as I don't like the mechanical complexity, and am satisfied with the performance of my legacy lenses.

[pedaes]

44 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

resolution at f 5.6

If resolution at 5.6 is your thing, then for a 35 the Zeiss Biogon 2.8 is difficult to beat, and a big big saving on Summilux.

[lm28469]

1 hour ago, pedaes said:

If that is fact they must be lemons to be avoided. Personally never heard of front or back focus issues either. Is your rangefinder accurate?

 

(I somehow replied anonymously  on my phone so there might be a duplicate answer if/once the mods approved it)

My RF is accurate as far as I can tell (the m10m is less than a year old), focuses at all distances on my cron, the cron focuses at all distances on my M3 which just came back from a CLA.
All three FLE behaved differently which is why I doubt the issue is on my side, I understand the system accuracy is a function of lens tolerance + rangefinder tolerance so I'm not saying my body is the absolute reference.

 

9 minutes ago, pedaes said:

If resolution at 5.6 is your thing, then for a 35 the Zeiss Biogon 2.8 is difficult to beat, and a big big saving on Summilux.

I know the FLE isn't the best resolving lenses in the world, but I expect a 5000+ euros lens to at least be somewhat sharp at infinity at f8. I don't think I own a single lens that doesn't achieve that, my uncoated soviet lenses from the 50s can do it. I understand a fast wide(ish) lens of that size won't win any resolution competition but ...
 

2 hours ago, dynaerik said:

Especially with the FLE (Floating Element) there shouldn't be the issue of front focusing. 

 

.... or you just saved some money

Wouldn't the floating element help for close focus and focus shift ? Which shouldn't have much of an impact at infinity + f8

[pedaes]

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22 minutes ago, lm28469 said:

focuses at all distances on my cron,

There is a mystery here. It is a fact that 'film era' lens don't have the rangefinder accuracy for a digital sensor. It is why Leica has redesigned the majority of lenses to meet the tighter demands of the digital cameras. Yet you are finding the opposite. The 35mm FLE is an exceptional lens (which is why it costs what it does not withstanding the Leica premium) and has many happy users, including me. If you are seriously interested in this lens I would try another example, preferable the newest 'lux FLE II. If that doesn't 'work', you will need a leap of faith and send camera and lens to Wetzlar for adjustment. 

[elmars]

I'm sorry to say this, but I can't see much difference in your example pictures. I don't mean to say that they are not there, but the type of photos are not particularly suitable and especially the rendering in the browser is insufficient.

The 35 FLE is a super lens, there is hardly anything better for this focal length (except maybe the APO-M or the APO-SL). But that doesn't rule out the possibility that the lenses may be defectively manufactured - even three at a time by one dealer. The lenses of one type are manufactured in a batch. If a worker has a bad day, then he may screw up several lenses at once. I once had a gross misfocus and a faulty lubrication. I then tried the replacement lens at the dealer. It had the same errors and it turned out that both were mounted on the same day by the same person.

[Huss]

I'm not one to defend Leica stuff because I have it and so it is the best - see my new M6 saga...  but my 35 FLE is awesome.  I can't tell from what you show where you focused.  Did you walk closer to whatever your point of focus is when you used the 35 vs the 50, to make sure the relative subject size matched?  Or did you just enlarge the 35 images more to make them match up to to the 50?  That will also make a difference.

And then we are dealing w testing methodology.  Your ability to hold the camera steady enough.  Your ability to focus accurately enough.  Basically if you really want to see how sharp the lens is vs you Cron - tripod and live view to pin point focus will be needed.  or at the bare minimum, live view.  That way you take the RF accuracy out of consideration for now.

[dynaerik]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb lm28469:

(I somehow replied anonymously  on my phone so there might be a duplicate answer if/once the mods approved it)

My RF is accurate as far as I can tell (the m10m is less than a year old), focuses at all distances on my cron, the cron focuses at all distances on my M3 which just came back from a CLA.
All three FLE behaved differently which is why I doubt the issue is on my side, I understand the system accuracy is a function of lens tolerance + rangefinder tolerance so I'm not saying my body is the absolute reference.

 

I know the FLE isn't the best resolving lenses in the world, but I expect a 5000+ euros lens to at least be somewhat sharp at infinity at f8. I don't think I own a single lens that doesn't achieve that, my uncoated soviet lenses from the 50s can do it. I understand a fast wide(ish) lens of that size won't win any resolution competition but ...
 

Wouldn't the floating element help for close focus and focus shift ? Which shouldn't have much of an impact at infinity + f8

True … at f8 there shouldn’t be an impact

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

I recognize the Berlin Ku'damm Leica store...
To properly assess performance always test any Leica M lens WIDE OPEN at infinity (for decentering) and WIDE OPEN at mfd (for RF coupling).
To properly assess performance also always test any Leica M lens with at LEAST TWO M BODIES.

As an owner of a 35 FLE Summilux I can confirm that - apart from really ugly bokeh and sporadic CA overflow - the lens is STELLAR!

I didn’t know this - how does wide open at infinity decentered vs perfect performance look? How do I evaluate this? 

Did Koudelka, the Turnley brothers, Mary Ellen Mark, David Allen Harvey, Alex Webb and the like worry about this and test all their Leica lenses? Or are we driving ourselves crazy expecting perfect performance from gear still put together by hand? 

[lm28469]

10 minutes ago, MadsP said:

I didn’t know this - how does wide open at infinity decentered vs perfect performance look? How do I evaluate this? 

Did Koudelka, the Turnley brothers, Mary Ellen Mark, David Allen Harvey, Alex Webb and the like worry about this and test all their Leica lenses? Or are we driving ourselves crazy expecting perfect performance from gear still put together by hand? 

Back in the days film was much much much more forgiving, because it's not as flat nor as thin as a modern digital sensor and because the resolution was just not there. All lenses are somewhat decentered, that's to be expected, but a small percentage are decentered bad enough to be an issue: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/05/testing-for-a-decentered-lens-an-old-technique-gets-a-makeover/

 

[Auroralabs]

13 hours ago, lm28469 said:

Hello, I just tried a few summilux fle in a leica store and I'm not sure what to think of the performance of the lens. Out of the three I tested two seemingly can't reach infinity, one back focuses enough to be annoying, another one the same but with front focus. Here are test shots at f5.6 (but at 4 or 8 it's about the same). Is the 35 fle sample variation that bad or did I test 3 lemons ? Somehow my 60 years old cron is sharper than all the fle

Here is my 1965 50 cron: https://i.imgur.com/MhX4O2A.jpeg

First FLE (used) I tested: https://i.imgur.com/3nla2cy.jpeg

Second FLE (used) : https://i.imgur.com/3nla2cy.jpeg

Third FLE (new): https://i.imgur.com/3hibd2W.jpeg

Comparison: https://i.imgur.com/dHlce20.jpeg

 

Sadly seems to be par for course. I tested many new recent Leica lenses and they were very sloppily calibrated. See my thread:

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Al Brown said:

 

In decentered lenses one (or more) of the corners is blurred/unsharp where it is supposed to be sharp due to several reasons concerning physics (on small Leica lenses we must not confuse this with field curvature). Tons of articles online on the matter, from very respected people as linked in post #13 above. Now I have no idea whether Koudelka, the Turnley brothers, Mary Ellen Mark, David Allen Harvey, Alex Webb and the like owned any decentered Leica lenses, but I always suggest decentering is like Santa Claus - it only exists if one believes in it.

It must be more difficult to check for on older lens designs like the 35SR re-issue, where the corners inherently are weaker than the center?

[lm28469]

7 hours ago, Auroralabs said:

Sadly seems to be par for course. I tested many new recent Leica lenses and they were very sloppily calibrated. See my thread:

 

That seems to be in line with my experience too, the 35 cron and 35 summarit I tested were also quite off in term of focusing, I guess some people don't test their lens at all, ignorance is bliss

[colint544]

I bought a new 35 FLE back in 2011, when it was still a recent lens in Leica's line-up. It had a rattle straight out of the box. Over time, it developed some play in the focus ring. Eventually the focus ring jammed, at a point where it couldn't reach infinity. Had to send it back to Leica and have it repaired at my own expense. I was a bit disappointed about that.

However, they fixed everything, including the rattle, and it's been fine since. I think it's a fabulous lens. Reasonably compact, has 1.4 aperture available when you need it. Sharp wherever you focus it. On film it's even better than digital. I've not found out of focus backgrounds to be busy. And the design with the square metal hood, which precisely locks at the right spot is great.

[dugby]

I’m sorry, but after viewing all of your provided sample images, I have difficulty in getting a satisfactory understanding of the issue, as the view is a tunnel-vision down the street.

As others have suggested you may want to try a different scene capture to get a different view if the potential issue.

I have used a 35FLE for 10years on an M240, I do use the 35FLE as my travel lens and find it extremely sharp at all distances.

 

However I prefer the 50APO on my M10-R as my all time favorite lens/combo.

 

[Photoworks]

It is funny that nobody noticed that the images are only 2 of the 35 tests.

In the last image, the samples are enlarged 400% ! Why🤨

maybe you like to invest in an M11 is you need to blow it up that much. More resolution.

 

[lm28469]

10 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

It is funny that nobody noticed that the images are only 2 of the 35 tests.

In the last image, the samples are enlarged 400% ! Why🤨

maybe you like to invest in an M11 is you need to blow it up that much. More resolution.

 

400% ? Nope that's 100% on an m10m

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[Photoworks]

2 minutes ago, lm28469 said:

400% ? Nope that's 100% on an m10m

not really

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