Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Share #1 Posted June 19 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I often see in photo competitions how some selected entries have quite a naive style of framing or composition. The image appears to be taken by a younger person or someone not yet encumbered with all the "rules of photography". Perhaps the the "off framed" image has a fresh looking appeal that judges are trying to promote? To bring back a sense of exploration to image making as opposed to repetitive styles seen over and over? There is also the idea that these images have an element of "mis timing". That is, the frame selected has little emphasis to the context of the image and the "best image" as we would understand it, could have been later or earlier in the sequence. This in effect giving the image an impression of naivety on behalf of the photographer and therefore constituting style of photography. The "undisciplined framing" and and timing of images seems to be a style of photography although I can't find anything on the internet about it even when typing "shooting from the hip". "Shooting from the hip" probably describes the technique better than anything else. It's quite a liberating style of shooting especially on the street but what about the use of intentional "off framing" to emphasise this style image creation? Has it really become a style? There is definitely something appealing to shooting "undisciplined framing" of images. Perhaps it's all about breaking the rules and developing art which feels good? Anyway I am starting an image thread for such pictures if you would like to add your renditions of "shooting from the hip". "The Undisciplined Framing Style" Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited June 19 by Ken Abrahams repetitive stuny 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4796630'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 19 Posted June 19 Hi Ken Abrahams, Take a look here Undisciplined Framing Style or Shooting from the Hip Images. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hepcat Posted June 19 Share #2 Posted June 19 6 minutes ago, Ken Abrahams said: I often see in photo competitions how some selected entries have quite a naive style of framing or composition. The image appears to be taken by a younger person or someone not yet encumbered with all the "rules of photography". Perhaps the the "off framed" image has a fresh looking appeal that judges are trying to promote? To bring back a sense of exploration to image making as opposed to repetitive styles seen over and over? There is also the idea that these images have an element of "mis timing". That is, the frame selected has little emphasis to the context of the image and the "best image" as we would understand it, could have been later or earlier in the sequence. This in effect giving the image an impression of naivety on behalf of the photographer and therefore constituting style of photography. The "undisciplined framing" and and timing of images seems to be a style of photography although I can't find anything on the internet about it even when typing "shooting from the hip". "Shooting from the hip" probably describes the technique better than anything else. It's quite a liberating style of shooting especially on the street but what about the use of intentional "off framing" to emphasise this style image creation? Has it really become a style? There is definitely something appealing to shooting "undisciplined framing" of images. Perhaps it's all about breaking the rules and developing art which feels good? Anyway I am starting an image thread for such pictures if you would like to add your renditions of "shooting from the hip". "The Undisciplined Framing Style" Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Ken, "rules of photography" have nothing to do with the science (or art) of photography itself and everything to do with what humans perceive as interesting and valuable. What you describe as "shooting from the hip" is exactly what has lowered standards and encouraged the ubiquity of really bad images. There are SO many really bad images in the world now available for public consumption , that the general public accepts bad work as the norm. Filckr, for example, is filled with them. The image you posted, for example... when I look at it I question why you released the shutter at that moment. What are you trying to say to me, the viewer, with this image? What is it about it that would compel me to spend my time looking at it. What do I as a viewer gain from it? To be brutally honest, I get nothing from it. It looks random. It hasn't a sense of place. It doesn't communicate a story. It doesn't satisfy any artistic need. It has no discipline, and I daresay, no point. As with so many images today, it just exists for the sake of existing. Don't misunderstand, I have some numbers of those same kinds of images squirreled away myself. I just don't see a reason for them to see the light of day. I certainly HOPE that there's no such "style" as you describe above. Mikep996 and fotografr 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Author Share #3 Posted June 19 47 minutes ago, hepcat said: Ken, "rules of photography" have nothing to do with the science (or art) of photography itself and everything to do with what humans perceive as interesting and valuable. What you describe as "shooting from the hip" is exactly what has lowered standards and encouraged the ubiquity of really bad images. There are SO many really bad images in the world now available for public consumption , that the general public accepts bad work as the norm. Filckr, for example, is filled with them. The image you posted, for example... when I look at it I question why you released the shutter at that moment. What are you trying to say to me, the viewer, with this image? What is it about it that would compel me to spend my time looking at it. What do I as a viewer gain from it? To be brutally honest, I get nothing from it. It looks random. It hasn't a sense of place. It doesn't communicate a story. It doesn't satisfy any artistic need. It has no discipline, and I daresay, no point. As with so many images today, it just exists for the sake of existing. Don't misunderstand, I have some numbers of those same kinds of images squirreled away myself. I just don't see a reason for them to see the light of day. I certainly HOPE that there's no such "style" as you describe above. Well thanks for your input Hepcat, I like your opening sentence in your reply. Best Ken hepcat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Author Share #4 Posted June 19 Randomness Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! stuny and JMF 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4796677'>More sharing options...
Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Author Share #5 Posted June 19 Randomness of Objects - The discovered random placement of objects and their spatial interrelationships. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! stuny, leicologe, 01maciel and 1 other 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4796685'>More sharing options...
Mikep996 Posted June 19 Share #6 Posted June 19 It is clear to me after viewing the pics that I do not understand/appreciate "randomness." But I can't figure out/understand/appreciate modern jazz either so, as they say, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." hepcat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
londond Posted June 19 Share #7 Posted June 19 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ken Interesting question - at the risk of sounding grandiose, at root it’s the “what is art?’ question which strikes me especially when looking at modern art. Sometimes we deliberately vary the ‘rules’ of composition to create a jarring effect. In music, adding a flattened third to a major scale gives a blue note. It’s metaphorical equivalent, a flattened rule of thirds, can accentuate an image. But improvising music with no reference to scale or key would give the random awfulness that Hepcat understandably bemoans in pictures. Mike’s modern jazz somewhere in between….. Walking round a modern art gallery, some of it does genuinely challenge my perceptions of art and the world around; but some I just don’t get. Likewise, sometimes exhibitions by some well regarded photographers seem to contain individually unremarkable images which together convey a sort of mood. To be honest, some still look to me like a string of random and not very good photos that have been elevated by the curation. Anyway, image attached as requested. I’m doing a series trying to convey the ‘poor to posh’ journey of the streets on the London Monopoly board, Most are more conventionally framed, but I’m thinking of using the attached random capture for one. Not sure if I have accidentally captured an image of marginalisation or if that’s just a pretentious gloss on a poor picture and I need to go back and get a better one. Best Dave Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Ken Abrahams, Sjz, RexGig0 and 3 others 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4796783'>More sharing options...
Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Author Share #8 Posted June 19 Daido Moriyama called it the "No Finder Shot". Someone jogged my memory of this unique photographer and I remembered reading articles about him. Back in the 70's with no internet they only way to keep up with the trends was to subscribe to journals and Life Magazine etc. I remember reading about his work and now rediscovered him. RexGig0 and JMF 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Author Share #9 Posted June 19 1 hour ago, londond said: Ken Interesting question - at the risk of sounding grandiose, at root it’s the “what is art?’ question which strikes me especially when looking at modern art. Sometimes we deliberately vary the ‘rules’ of composition to create a jarring effect. In music, adding a flattened third to a major scale gives a blue note. It’s metaphorical equivalent, a flattened rule of thirds, can accentuate an image. But improvising music with no reference to scale or key would give the random awfulness that Hepcat understandably bemoans in pictures. Mike’s modern jazz somewhere in between….. Walking round a modern art gallery, some of it does genuinely challenge my perceptions of art and the world around; but some I just don’t get. Likewise, sometimes exhibitions by some well regarded photographers seem to contain individually unremarkable images which together convey a sort of mood. To be honest, some still look to me like a string of random and not very good photos that have been elevated by the curation. Anyway, image attached as requested. I’m doing a series trying to convey the ‘poor to posh’ journey of the streets on the London Monopoly board, Most are more conventionally framed, but I’m thinking of using the attached random capture for one. Not sure if I have accidentally captured an image of marginalisation or if that’s just a pretentious gloss on a poor picture and I need to go back and get a better one. Best Dave Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Thanks Dave, well said and explained. I certainly wasn't interested in posing "that question" about what art is but instead to engage with the good folk here to post images relating to what I am describing about framing photographs. There must be some good ones! Perhaps I am somewhat naive in automatically accepting such a style has its merits and is indeed a valid form of photographic art? I didnt question it at all because of the way images are selected for Art stream photographic competitions. Thanks for finding an image to post here. More to think about and images to post I think. Best Ken hepcat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Author Share #10 Posted June 19 Shooting from the Hip - These likely lads probably would have caused me bother if I held the camera up to compose the image. Besides all the candidness and natural essence of the faces would also have be lost. If you look at my instagram page, (ken_abrahams) 95% of the images are "shot from the hip" or what I am calling Undisciplined Framing. Many of my street images on this Forum going back 18 months are all shot from the hip to capture candid humans. It might be unconventional way to take a photograph but let me say, it takes a great deal of discipline and practice to perfect this style. One never knows what is coming down the street but you better be ready for it and then the discovery at home on the computer. Revelations of hidden gems and then painful realisations of soft unusable images. Then stepping out the next day to do it all over again, bringing home something that works as candid street image. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! stuny, Mike S and RexGig0 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4796889'>More sharing options...
Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Author Share #11 Posted June 19 "Undisciplined Framing" Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! RexGig0, stuny and frame-it 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4796898'>More sharing options...
Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Author Share #12 Posted June 19 SL 601 35 Summilux 1.4 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! stuny 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4796907'>More sharing options...
fotografr Posted June 19 Share #13 Posted June 19 I can only speak for myself, so I hope no one takes this as a generalization. I've shot a fair amount from the hip and posted a few of the images here. In my case the primary reason for shooting from the hip is to compensate for my lack of courage about putting my camera up and being obvious about pointing it at complete strangers. Some people are great at making instant connections on the street and have no reluctance to confront strangers with their camera. Many of us, in my opinion, are uncomfortable with this and use shooting from the hip as the next best option. The rationale often expressed is that shooting this way is discreet and doesn't 'destroy the moment' by alerting the person being photographed. I don't buy it. Tailwagger 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Abrahams Posted June 19 Author Share #14 Posted June 19 On a recent trip to Melbourne I discovered how a good majority of people in the city didn’t care that someone took their photo. Street Photography has a higher profile there compared to where I live. Perhaps in the crowded streets of Melbourne the photographer has a certain cover and so much going on 24/7. I don’t want to connect with people on the streets. I don’t chat or want to engage them in any stage of photographing them. Any direct eye contact and spotting your camera alerts the subjects curiosity. I can tell when to stop a pursuit to capture a person because the moment of candidness is being lost. I don’t want to capture anything else other than a candid shot. One can certainly capture candid moments without shooting from the hip and I do so on occasions. I also might engage a street portrait however not very often because it’s not what I want. My city is quite small and my problem as a street photographer shooting candid humans is familiarity. If one ventures into the city two or three times per week for several years, even the street people begin to say hello. It’s not entirely the reason I shoot from the hip however it does interfere with my process. Some of my people street images look like portraits and therefore not entirely in the street genre “proper” given that the descriptions for street photography are very wide. I love the City experience and the mass of people, I love observing and capturing humans being human. I’m not shy or afraid to to photograph random people but understand the degree of personal challenge involved for some people doing street photography. It’s not easy and there maybe other forms of image making that they best pursue. My time on the planet is limited and I have a couple of projects yet to be completed. I like to view the projects as open ended and on going, as I keep adding more images. I have expanded my equipment to shoot a range of styles but keep coming back to the City Street. Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted June 19 Share #15 Posted June 19 Sometime I'll shoot from the hip in places where they ban photography. However, for this shot I didn't want to cause the subject to change her movement in any way. Crossing Madison Avenue at 42nd Street Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Ken Abrahams, frame-it, David Cantor and 3 others 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4797090'>More sharing options...
londond Posted June 20 Share #16 Posted June 20 So the thread prompted me to wander up to Parliament Square and photograph some people (a mixture of politicos and tourists). The range of approaches would be fairly typical for me on that location. The first, shot from the hip…. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! LocalHero1953, stuny, Ken Abrahams and 3 others 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4797379'>More sharing options...
londond Posted June 20 Share #17 Posted June 20 Next, using Leica Fotos remote to frame the image Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! LocalHero1953, hepcat, AZach and 3 others 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4797382'>More sharing options...
londond Posted June 20 Share #18 Posted June 20 Then using the camera/OVF conventionally but the subject didn't know I was photographing him…. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! hepcat, Ken Abrahams, stuny and 2 others 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4797383'>More sharing options...
londond Posted June 20 Share #19 Posted June 20 Finally engaging some people and chatting to them while shooting Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! hepcat, RexGig0, stuny and 1 other 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378486-undisciplined-framing-style-or-shooting-from-the-hip-images/?do=findComment&comment=4797385'>More sharing options...
londond Posted June 20 Share #20 Posted June 20 ….while doing so, I tried to reflect on the process so see if I could come up with any intelligent insights for this thread. Sadly failed on that beyond the obvious conclusion that I enjoy going out and playing with my Leicas, part of which is choosing how to shoot. As others saying on the thread, the approach taken effects the image, whether discovering a striking composition in a random hip shot or influencing/not the subject. I guess its like changing lenses, which personally I only tend to do if photographing events etc on the SL2 for other people who want various shots. Mostly I’m out for fun with an M, stick with whatever’s on (35 or 50) but try different techniques. Other people change lenses more, each to their own….. hepcat, LocalHero1953, Ken Abrahams and 1 other 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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