Sohail Posted June 6, 2023 Share #1 Posted June 6, 2023 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I guess it's a reasonable assumption that the SL3 will have the same sensor as the Q3. If so, I wonder if there are any thoughts on how the Q3 sensor compares with the SL2-S sensor at higher ISO levels. Edited June 6, 2023 by Sohail 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 6, 2023 Posted June 6, 2023 Hi Sohail, Take a look here SL2-S sensor vs Q3 sensor at higher ISO levels. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest Posted June 6, 2023 Share #2 Posted June 6, 2023 M11 sensor performs supposedly similarly to Q3. SL2-S is 1-1.5 stops better in low light (when downsizing a 60MP M11 DNG to 24MP). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobra Posted June 7, 2023 Share #3 Posted June 7, 2023 7 hours ago, mzbe said: M11 sensor performs supposedly similarly to Q3. SL2-S is 1-1.5 stops better in low light (when downsizing a 60MP M11 DNG to 24MP). Interesting... that doesn't seem to line up with Bill Claff's testing, which shows the M11 slightly beating the SL2-S at low ISO's and very similar at higher ISO's as the SL2-S (maybe 1/4 stop to the SL2-S at some higher ISO's)... https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11,Leica SL2,Leica SL2-S Can you elaborate why you say that the SL2-S is better than the M11/Q3 sensor? Thanks, Brad Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansvons Posted June 7, 2023 Share #4 Posted June 7, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, kobra said: that doesn't seem to line up with Bill Claff's testing, which shows the M11 slightly beating the SL2-S at low ISO's and very similar at higher ISO's as the SL2-S (maybe 1/4 stop to the SL2-S at some higher ISO's)... These curves say as much as curves can say say regarding the look and feel of images. They say, however, that the M11 sensor has a pretty high dynamic range. It says nothing about the roll-off in the whites, the look of the noise, how colour holds up in under and overexposure, or the level of juice and colour separation in the shadows. But especially the latter is crucial, at least to me. Does that make the M11 sensor lesser? No, not at all. I’d test both cameras side by side and compare the images in my preferred workflow—if I were in the market. But I’d never believe some curves someone derives from shooting charts because my subjects are not charts. Edited June 7, 2023 by hansvons 5 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted June 7, 2023 Share #5 Posted June 7, 2023 12 hours ago, Sohail said: I guess it's a reasonable assumption that the SL3 will have the same sensor as the Q3. If so, I wonder if there are any thoughts on how the Q3 sensor compares with the SL2-S sensor at higher ISO levels. As far as I understand/hear, SL3 and 'S4' (the new medium format, mirrorless) will share sensor. If so, one can expect a sensor different from that in Q3. 4 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 7, 2023 Share #6 Posted June 7, 2023 15 hours ago, mzbe said: M11 sensor performs supposedly similarly to Q3. SL2-S is 1-1.5 stops better in low light (when downsizing a 60MP M11 DNG to 24MP). Do you have a source? In my tests, M11 and SL2-S have very similar noise/DR at higher ISOs. SL2-S is only a bit better when lifting the shadows a lot (not a typical operation for me). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 7, 2023 Share #7 Posted June 7, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 5 hours ago, helged said: As far as I understand/hear, SL3 and 'S4' (the new medium format, mirrorless) will share sensor. If so, one can expect a sensor different from that in Q3. S4 will likely have a larger sensor than SL3. The sensor used in M11 and Q3 is likely the "same" one used in X2D and GFX100. Why do you think SL3 and S4 will have different sensors, especially since the one in M11/Q3 is so good? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 7, 2023 Share #8 Posted June 7, 2023 Physical sensor size is just a matter of cutting the wafer to a different size. A sensor is only “good” when applied to the camera it -and its microlenses and filter stack- was designed for. No two camera models have the same design parameters thus the sensors will never be the same. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted June 7, 2023 Share #9 Posted June 7, 2023 27 minutes ago, SrMi said: S4 will likely have a larger sensor than SL3. The sensor used in M11 and Q3 is likely the "same" one used in X2D and GFX100. Why do you think SL3 and S4 will have different sensors, especially since the one in M11/Q3 is so good? I only refer to what people close to Wetzlar say... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobra Posted June 7, 2023 Share #10 Posted June 7, 2023 8 hours ago, hansvons said: These curves say as much as curves can say say regarding the look and feel of images. They say, however, that the M11 sensor has a pretty high dynamic range. It says nothing about the roll-off in the whites, the look of the noise, how colour holds up in under and overexposure, or the level of juice and colour separation in the shadows. But especially the latter is crucial, at least to me. Does that make the M11 sensor lesser? No, not at all. I’d test both cameras side by side and compare the images in my preferred workflow—if I were in the market. But I’d never believe some curves someone derives from shooting charts because my subjects are not charts. Well said, and I agree ... the charts do contain a standardized testing methodology so, to me, are a good starting point. However, you nailed it when you said it is best to test side by side for yourself to determine how that fits with your work. My subjects aren't charts either 😉 I still am curious where @mzbe got the information to suggest "SL2-S is 1-1.5 stops better in low light (when downsizing a 60MP M11 DNG to 24MP)". Brad 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul2660 Posted June 7, 2023 Share #11 Posted June 7, 2023 Interesting post on Leica Rumors. https://leicarumors.com/2023/06/05/leica-q3-vs-q2-low-light-comparisons.aspx/ With modern noise reduction software the Q2 file IMO could get pretty close to the Q3 image albeit the Q3 @50k is cleaner out of the camera Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterBoyadjian Posted June 7, 2023 Share #12 Posted June 7, 2023 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mWYVQNZDCo Finally a decent comparison. 6400 on the Q3 looks like 12800 on the SL2S. Part of my thinks I should just pickup a used SL2S for mid 3k instead of a Q3. SL2S 75SLAPO + Q3 (I would have to sell my 35SLAPO to keep the Q3) SL2S 75SLAPO + SL2S 24-90 Not sure which way I should go but I really do need a 2nd camera for my events. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 7, 2023 Share #13 Posted June 7, 2023 vor 9 Stunden schrieb helged: As far as I understand/hear, SL3 and 'S4' (the new medium format, mirrorless) will share sensor. If so, one can expect a sensor different from that in Q3. Could they have meant same pixel size as in 3.76 μm but one being the MF IMX461 with 100 MP and the other the FF IMX455 with 61 MP? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 7, 2023 Share #14 Posted June 7, 2023 vor 3 Minuten schrieb PeterBoyadjian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mWYVQNZDCo Finally a decent comparison. 6400 on the Q3 looks like 12800 on the SL2S. Part of my thinks I should just pickup a used SL2S for mid 3k instead of a Q3. SL2S 75SLAPO + Q3 (I would have to sell my 35SLAPO to keep the Q3) SL2S 75SLAPO + SL2S 24-90 Not sure which way I should go but I really do need a 2nd camera for my events. How about the LUMIX S5 II with one of them sharp SL primes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterBoyadjian Posted June 7, 2023 Share #15 Posted June 7, 2023 20 minutes ago, Chaemono said: How about the LUMIX S5 II with one of them sharp SL primes. My business parter has one for our video production side and it is basically a SL2S with faster video auto focus. ISO performance is the same, colors are a little different. But, the menu system is trash. There are a couple in LA for $1500 used right now, honestly might just be the logical thing to do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangosix Posted June 7, 2023 Share #16 Posted June 7, 2023 There is something special about my m11 files, especially low-light torture examples and a m50apo. The way they can be stretched, pulled, and recovered is amazing. My sl2s presents colors punchier perhaps in low light. I just love it, and I enjoy being less disciplined when using the sl2s. I am hoping for even more dynamic range for the sl3 sensor than the m11 and more like the hassy x2d "painting-like look". I am amazed at how well Leica keeps Op Sec information confidential. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 7, 2023 Share #17 Posted June 7, 2023 7 hours ago, SrMi said: Do you have a source? In my tests, M11 and SL2-S have very similar noise/DR at higher ISOs. SL2-S is only a bit better when lifting the shadows a lot (not a typical operation for me). Yes - I have both cameras. SL2-S appears to be one stop better when reducing 60MP M11 images to 24MP. Without downsampling the 60MP images from the M11, the 'per pixel' Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) is more than one stop worse with the M11. Here is one method to substantiate this observation: NeatImage (PC/Mac commercial software) measures 'Noise Level' as part of its profiling step. Here is what I am seeing with 2 simple test images from both cameras, at 1/15", with lens cap on to eliminate environmental factors, maximum DNG exposure, no sharpening or noise reduction. Disclaimer - this is not a 'proper' comparison across the ISO range (which would be required for any 'scientific' claims) - more of a spot measurement (= at least backed by numbers ...) that supports what I am seeing based on the 1000s of images I have captured with both cameras. IBIS in the SL2-S is often worth another 3 stops, e.g. when shooting with the 90mm Summilux ... M11 at ISO 12500 - Noise Level 106.5 (lower is better) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M11 at ISO 12500 - image size down-sampled in Photoshop to 24MP to match SL2-S - Noise Level 99.3 (lower is better) SL2-S at ISO 25000 - Noise Level 100.1 (lower is better) Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M11 at ISO 12500 - image size down-sampled in Photoshop to 24MP to match SL2-S - Noise Level 99.3 (lower is better) SL2-S at ISO 25000 - Noise Level 100.1 (lower is better) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/377968-sl2-s-sensor-vs-q3-sensor-at-higher-iso-levels/?do=findComment&comment=4789253'>More sharing options...
hansvons Posted June 8, 2023 Share #18 Posted June 8, 2023 19 hours ago, Paul2660 said: With modern noise reduction software the Q2 file IMO could get pretty close to the Q3 image albeit the Q3 @50k is cleaner out of the camera Yes. That might be true. But with the noise, the juice in the shadows (saturation and colour separation, think of all cats are grey at night) gets lower. That cannot be fixed with algorithms, at least not now. 14 hours ago, mzbe said: Here is one method to substantiate this observation: NeatImage (PC/Mac commercial software) measures 'Noise Level' as part of its profiling step. NeatVideo is the de-facto standard in the film industry for fixing noise issues or preparing green screen plates. Excellent software. Your findings corroborate my assumptions that the M11 sensor, as mighty as it might be, cannot outperform a modern 24MP sensor of the same technology in sensitivity and S/R ratio. Bigger pixels = better pixel, smaller pixel=more pixel. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 8, 2023 Share #19 Posted June 8, 2023 Thank you for the test, @mzbe. Once I have access to my M11 and SL2-S, I will run the measurements as well. Can you confirm that you have used the same exposure in both tests (same shutter speed, same aperture, and same scene lighting)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted June 8, 2023 Share #20 Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, PeterBoyadjian said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mWYVQNZDCo Finally a decent comparison. 6400 on the Q3 looks like 12800 on the SL2S. Part of my thinks I should just pickup a used SL2S for mid 3k instead of a Q3. SL2S 75SLAPO + Q3 (I would have to sell my 35SLAPO to keep the Q3) SL2S 75SLAPO + SL2S 24-90 Not sure which way I should go but I really do need a 2nd camera for my events. I've only skimmed that video, but it looks like a Q2-Q3 comparison, not Q3-SL2S. Did I miss something by not watching all through? Edited June 8, 2023 by LocalHero1953 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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