M10 colour profile, similar to what?

[erniethemilk]

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I really like the colour profile of my M10-P, it's nicer in use than my Nikon or any other camera I own/owned.  For quite a bit of what I shoot, either woodland or landscape I find the colours to be spot on for what I want 99.9% of the time.

Question is, is there another Leica camera that offers the same (or almost same) profile.  I'm guessing the older Leica's may have a better chance of being more like the M10 colours, I've heard the original SL is very similar. 

Just wondering if anyone has any experience/suggestions of this.

[mujk]

I guess you mean the color rendition of the M10 using the color profile embedded in the DNG? There is often also a camera-specific profile in the editing/raw conversion software, e.g. Lightroom, that may produce a different result. In addition, you can create your own profiles and in some cases buy one. 

So you can tweak the result by changing profile, but if the sensors are very different the results will still differ. For example these test shots. They are all taken with the same lens (35 cron asph at f2) and manual exposure. They are unprocessed so they are a bit dark.

M10 + embedded 

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M9 + embedded 

M9 + Adobe standard

I have also played with applying M9 profiles to the M10, but the changes are quite small when compared to the M10 embedded profile.

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[Adam Bonn]

The profile and therefore the RAW app we use make a very real different to the way the image arrives on our screen.

The embedded Leica profiles are consistent in that they’re made with two ColorMatrices and nothing else. (Different values for different cameras though!)

Two ColorMatrices isn’t really enough data for adobe, so they’ll be some degree of the adobe pipeline tweaking the rendering (actually the XYZ_D50 transformation) to get it to fit.

When it comes to adobe profiles things get more complicated.

Over the years adobe has tweaked how its profiles function. They (more or less) all have the same components, but the weighting of each component has changed over the years where adobe has gone from using ForwardMatrices to do the heavy lifting (circa M9 era) to really turning the ForwardMatrices down to preserve the gamut, then using the profile LUTs to bring the saturation back up. (For example the M8 has a post demosaicing LUT, but not pre-demosaicing ones. The M9 has pre-demosaicing LUTs, but not post. The 240/10/10r/11 has both pre and post demosaicing LUTs)

The colours we get are an extension of the cameras WB algorithm.

Each DNG has a 3x1 As Shot Neutral tag, and this is used as the base from which the colours are derived.

For ease of explanation (the real maths is much more complicated)

ASN x ColorMatrix = colours

The ColorMatrix is a fixed set of numbers (a 3x3 numeric matrix in fact) but the ASN (wb) changes. Either because the algorithm of the camera detects (say) tungsten light or the photographer sets a value or a preset (eg ‘sunny’)

This is how Leica (et el) are able to resolve colour cast issues with FW updates without the need for new camera profiles, ie they tweak the WB algorithm.

So comparing camera A with camera B ultimately becomes a guessing game of I wonder what the WB in the other camera would make of this scene

 

 

 

[erniethemilk]

Thanks for the info. 
 

Adam, I’ll be honest. I don’t understand a word you’re saying (albeit most eloquently) 😆

I love the colours (in the RAW file) from my M10-P and I’d love to add an alternate model such as an SL for arguments sake that has a similar look. 
 

As an example if I look at files from my Nikon Z7ii or a D850 (or indeed most Nikon bodies), the colour profile is very, very similar. 
 

I’m wondering if this isn’t the case with alternate Leica camera bodies (new & old). 

[Adam Bonn]

If you scroll through these you'll get a sense of how this works away from my 'simplified' version!

https://www.lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/#profile_theory

https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/optical-engineering/volume-59/issue-11/110801/Color-conversion-matrices-in-digital-cameras-a-tutorial/10.1117/1.OE.59.11.110801.full?SSO=1

https://www.odelama.com/photo/Developing-a-RAW-Photo-by-hand/Developing-a-RAW-Photo-by-hand_Part-2/#letsdothis

https://helpx.adobe.com/content/dam/help/en/photoshop/pdf/dng_spec_1_6_0_0.pdf (page 85)

Personally I'd just find some sample RAWs from the desired camera (DPR if they're still there), download them and see what you think...

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, erniethemilk said:

I love the colours (in the RAW file) from my M10-P and I’d love to add an alternate model such as an SL for arguments sake that has a similar look. 
 

 

As others note, you can easily make your own profile(s) and save as default import or preset.  Not perfect, but a good starting point. And there are numerous profile options within LR or similar software, or through third party.  Out-of-camera colors are not rigid, and are subject to many variables.  
 

But since workflows, perceptions and personal  preferences vary, the best approach IMO is to demo gear and see for yourself.

Jeff

[Kiwimac]

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I have to say that the film simulation colours I used to get from my Fuji GFX100 were the best I’ve yet seen. 
 

I do wish Leica had that kind of thing. 

[Adam Bonn]

18 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

I have to say that the film simulation colours I used to get from my Fuji GFX100 were the best I’ve yet seen. 
 

I do wish Leica had that kind of thing. 

There’s companies out there offering velvia, astia, provia etc presets and profiles.

[Kiwimac]

5 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

There’s companies out there offering velvia, astia, provia etc presets and profiles.

There are. So many it’s hard to identify the ones worth the money!

[Adam Bonn]

6 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

There are. So many it’s hard to identify the ones worth the money!

Absolutely, it’s why I put quite a considerable effort into learning the nuts and bolts of profiles to make my own 

[Kiwimac]

4 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

Absolutely, it’s why I put quite a considerable effort into learning the nuts and bolts of profiles to make my own 

Above my pay grade! 🤣

[Adam Bonn]

1 minute ago, Kiwimac said:

Above my pay grade! 🤣

I'm sure that the many folks with an aptitude for such things will smirk, but it didn't come easily and was (for me at least) a long, hard slog...

Perhaps a reasonable (although...) analogy would be something like,

armed with the proper tools and instructions, someone could conceivably change a camshaft in an engine without really knowing what it is or does... but if one wants to tune an engine by re-profiling a camshaft, then knowing what it does and how it does it is a crucial foundation to modifying its shape...*

(that's why whenever this subject comes up I'm forever banging on about the role of the WB algorithm and the XYZ_D50 transform)

*and no, I wouldn't have a clue how do that!! 😅

[Kiwimac]

It would be interesting to hear what commercially available film simulation etc people recommend. 

[evikne]

48 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

It would be interesting to hear what commercially available film simulation etc people recommend. 

I use the RNI All Films 5 Pro from Really Nice Images, and I am very satisfied.

[Kiwimac]

2 hours ago, evikne said:

I use the RNI All Films 5 Pro from Really Nice Images, and I am very satisfied.

Thanks; I downloaded their free trial bits and will check them out.

[35photo]

I’ve gone down the profile route, they are OK… Once figured out how to do it on my own in Lightroom… the results were much better in my opinion. Sure there are certain aspects I liked of the profiles as they are mimicking film color palette, contrast etc… knowing the types of colors I like for say a greens… which is more a kin to Kodachrome… I know how to achieve that.

[aamwgm]

On 5/12/2023 at 10:11 PM, Adam Bonn said:

There’s companies out there offering velvia, astia, provia etc presets and profiles.

But there's a difference: when I take a picture and chimp, all I'll ever see is the embedded profile. Now, if the embedded profile is appealing to my eyes, it inspires me to go out and shoot some more. This effect is completely lost with post processing: where it may take hours (sometimes days) for you to get home and process the photos.

I think preferences may vary, but these are vastly different ways of taking pictures.

[Adam Bonn]

On 1/12/2024 at 4:05 PM, aamwgm said:

when I take a picture and chimp

when you take a picture and chimp what you're looking at is the camera's SOOC jpeg (even if you have jpegs turned off the camera still makes one or else they'd be nothing to see on the LCD to review the shot). This is an entirely different thing to the "embedded profile" (which is a .dcp file that Leica embeds into the DNG as per the adobe DNG spec)

But the important thing is this

On 1/12/2024 at 4:05 PM, aamwgm said:

is appealing to my eyes, it inspires me to go out and shoot some more

and if that's happening, then that's great.

On 1/12/2024 at 4:05 PM, aamwgm said:

are vastly different ways of taking pictures

Not really - on an M you have fully manual or derivatives of whether to use auto ISO and/or aperture priority, but there's many different ways of reviewing, dealing with, and presenting the pictures that we do take