Super Elmar 21 Soft/defect?

[la1402]

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Hi all,

i recently acquired a Super Elmar 21 for my M11. This looks like brand new despite being 10 years old. I bought it from a private seller who is selling his complete Leica M equipment and claimed to never have used it. Testing onsite showed now major issues. I had very high hopes as this lens has such high reputation. But after downloading the first pictures I was not overly impressed. So I made some test shots compared to the new Sony 20-70 zoom on my A7RV, so both lenses on a 60MP sensor. LR has the new profile for the Sony zoom loaded. The M11 picture was underexposed by half a stop by mistake (dialled in the wrong exposure), so I adjusted exposure in LR by 0.5 stops, which for this test should make no major difference. All shots with timer from the tripod.

I must say I am disappointed, if not shocked. The SEM is not remotely close to the Sony Zoom, at center it almost holds up, but outside of that it is really bad. Is this what I should expect from a WA lens for Leica - or does my lense have an issue? These are Snippings at 100% at center, midframe and corner at f4. At 5.6 the SEM looks slightly better, but the Sony even more so.

First is corner, second center, 3rd midframe.

Thank you for your help.

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Edited May 9, 2023 by la1402

[jankap]

How did you focus these pictures? Did you rangefind the M11 one?

Further, a newspaper is a flat surface. In my landscape fotos I never see a flat plane. Perhaps infinity, ok.😜

Edited May 9, 2023 by jankap

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[la1402]

With Fokus peaking to take Calibration out of the equation. 

[Al Brown]

- You need to test all 4 corners to check for decentering, and test them at infinity and wide open
- Focus peaking is NOT accurate, the camera guesses the contrast. Instead, zoom in on live view, it is the most accurate method

If you like, post an infinity focused wide open shot here - all 4 corners and the full picture. I will be able to assess it acurately then and give you an answer.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Al Brown

[la1402]

Al, thanks I do it via zooming in. But will test the other method - I assume then another far away subject - as this one will not fit the frame at infinity?

[Keith (M)]

Wasn't there a problem on early production 21mm SEM's - a recall and a change in production and/or materials?

Edited May 9, 2023 by Keith (M)

[Photoworks]

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13 minutes ago, Keith (M) said:

Wasn't there a problem on early production 21mm SEM's - a recall and a change in production and/or materials?

Yes, the focusing ring got stronger, and people did complain about it being soft( flexible on squeeze) 

I still have it and it works fine.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Photoworks
typo

[la1402]

I have the new one with the thicker focus ring.

[Photoworks]

It could be that the lens is off-alignment.

But to be frank, this lens is not a close-up lens for newspapers, it is more a wide view lens for 2m on. 
Comparing a lens from 1997 to a lens from 2023 is a stretch. Sony is a very good Zoom. 

Back then the production of lenses was calculated for film cameras, and the coating of those days is different from what you get now.

I tested the SEM on an SL2, comparing it with 20-60 from Panasonic I get very similar results. the 21 SEM has less distortion which is good to make environment portraits.

I would close down the f stop a little and use it more at f8

[jankap]

13 hours ago, la1402 said:

Al, thanks I do it via zooming in. But will test the other method - I assume then another far away subject - as this one will not fit the frame at infinity?

Please, have a look at the blog of Jim Kasson too. The right side of the blog.

[la1402]

I have done another test at longer distance (3M). This looks much better, but still not creating the wow factor that I would have expected after many rave reviews. I will spend some more time on this to understand it better. Thanks for the suggestion of Jims blog - always worth reading 🙂

[jto555]

I bought a secondhand 21mm F2.8 ELMARIT-M and it was horrendous. Very soft to the point of been out of focus, very like your lens but at all apertures. I would suspect that it had had a fall. It went back to Leica and came back a different lens. Pin sharp is an understatement. The lens was nearly six years old and was covered by Leica warranty. 10 years later I am still using the same lens on a daily bases. I think your lens could go to Leica for adjustment. It certainly should help.

 

 

J

[pgk]

On 5/9/2023 at 5:48 PM, la1402 said:

Is this what I should expect from a WA lens for Leica - or does my lense have an issue?

It has an issue. This is not the performance which I get from my SEM (Super-Elmar-M) at close focus. Its far better and competes well with the Sony 20/1.8 which I also have. If I had to say of the two which was capable of more detailed images it would be the SEM, and the Sony is a very good lens. Your lens needs to go to a repairer or Leica themselves.

[250swb]

I don’t know why the OP is surprised, a modern lens for a digital camera is a far more efficient piece of kit compared with a lens made for film on an entirely different camera. So at least compare apples with apples or understand where such comparisons fall flat on their face.

[la1402]

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

I don’t know why the OP is surprised, a modern lens for a digital camera is a far more efficient piece of kit compared with a lens made for film on an entirely different camera. So at least compare apples with apples or understand where such comparisons fall flat on their face.

The SEM21 was introduced in 2011 along with the M9-P. Based on what do you claim it was designed for film? 

[Al Brown]

@la1402 if you are able to do the simplest of tests - shoot wide open at infinity, turn around the camera 180 degrees and shoot wide open at infinity again and post both (high res) photos here your dilemma will be solved in a jiffy.

[250swb]

15 minutes ago, la1402 said:

The SEM21 was introduced in 2011 along with the M9-P. Based on what do you claim it was designed for film? 

Yes. What is this 'claim' crap? A modern digital lens built specifically for the camera has all the firmware adjustments built into the lens and camera's firmware so what you get is an otherwise problematic lens adjusted with firmware to become a fantastic lens. That is how things work now. The SEM21 was not built to be fully adjusted by firmware, it doesn't have any! It was built to be good on the Leica film/digital platform, not as a specific lens built for digital cameras.

[Kl@usW.]

My guess: your SEM has an issue and needs to be centered ( zentriert ). I own a SEM and the performance is much better than what I see in the OP‘s pictures.

Two things: a 21 SEM, exzellent as it is , is not a macro lens; testing it for its macro properties is nonsens..

The 21 SEM tends to develop a wobble: the optical cell gets loose in the barrel and of course then you‘ll have a decentered  lens. 

Had this twice. Can be fixed within a few  minutes. Send the SEM to Wetzlar or bring it there, its a 90 min drive...and you can wait for it. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Kl@usW.