Just can't decide about my new 35 FLE....

[JoshuaR]

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About ten days ago I took receipt of a 35 FLE—the previous version, with the metal hood. It's my first Leica lens outside of the Q2—otherwise, my M lenses (used with M10 and M4-P) are all from Voigtlander and Zeiss. 35mm is my most-used focal length by far, so I figured it made sense to take the plunge.

My return window for the FLE closes in a couple of days. And my (first-world) problem is that I  just can't decide what I think about the lens as a value proposition. 

I can clearly see the quality difference between the pictures the FLE produces and the ones I was making with my previous 35mm, the CV 35 Ultron II—a very different lens. The FLE is sharper, the bokeh is better, the transitions between in-focus and out-of-focus are more beautiful. And, despite its larger size, the FLE is definitely more pleasant to use from a haptic perspective, especially the focus ring.

But when I look back through my photos. it also seems to me that the pictures I took with the Ultron were "good enough" for my quite simple style of photography (basically just family and travel pictures). The FLE is better, but it hasn't made me look askance upon my Ultron pictures. At the relatively small print sizes I'm using (5x7, 8x10 maximum), the divergences start to melt away. And haptically, I notice the differences when I'm playing with the lenses, but not when I'm actually shooting. At that point, I'm just focused on the photography.

Adding to my confusion is the fact that the FLE seems to open up a whole new world of expensive glass. To "match" the FLE, it seems like I should consider replacing my somewhat long-in-the-tooth Zeiss 50/1.5 Sonnar with a 50 Lux ASPH. But aren't my Sonnar pictures also "good enough," with a character I like? I'm suddenly contemplating buying a Leica 28mm, too. I'm sure that I'd find quality differences, and the Leica lenses would hold their value. But for the price of the FLE, I could complete my entire lens lineup (adding 21, 24, 75, 90) using new CV lenses. Or get myself within shouting distance of an M10 Monochrome. I almost feel like I'm at a fork in the road, in terms of the cost of my kit going forward. It's not a rational way to think, but then this whole hobby is a little irrational....

I'm not sure that this is something anyone else can help me with - but if anyone has any perspective to offer, I'd appreciate it. Part of me thinks I should just keep the FLE for a year or two and make up my mind slowly. Another part of me thinks I should just return it and go back to my "good enough" kit, which just a couple of weeks ago I was thinking of as the best photo kit I've ever owned (CV 28/2, CV 35/2, Zeiss 50/1.5). Here are some images from the Ultron and FLE. Thanks for reading!

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Edited April 29, 2023 by JoshuaRothman
Added images.

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[Knipsknecht]

Hey there👋!

To a certain degree I can understand your (first world) problem😉. When I took the plunge into the Leica M system I definitely wanted the 35mm and the 50mm Summilux lenses - and actually I bought them (used!). And yes, they are great lenses!

BUT: I never got really warm with the 35mm FLE because it’s kind of big and chunky on a Leica M and wide open the vignette is pretty prominent. My most used 35mm lens is the Voigtlander Nokton f1.4 II. It’s far from the quality of the FLE, but it is much much smaller and lighter, and at f8 I can’t see a relevant difference that makes me longing for the FLE.
The look that the 50mm Lux delivers wide open is beautiful, but I rarely shoot wide open. Additionally I own a 50mm f2.4 Summarit, too, and it is smaller, lighter and delivers almost the same look that the Lux provides.

So, I have two thoughts you may want to take into consideration:

1. If you think about your personal photography and your style. Do you really need the FLE? Would it make a big positive (!) difference to your previously used 35mm lens? Especially given the size, the weight and the cost of the FLE?

2. Given the price of the FLE, could you invest the amount of money alternatively into something else that could improve your photography or otherwise your well-being? For example, how about a nice trip to photogenic city or location abroad? Or a family trip without any photography?

Personally, I think about reducing my Leica equipment. If I sell the two Summiluxes, I will get enough money for a really nice photography trip abroad. And in the end I think this kind of experience is much better than buying expensive gear that is hardly used afterwards.

These are just my personal thoughts and of course everyone is free to disagree😉!

[cboy]

I would of thought the value proposition to be weighed against your style and current gear etc would of been made prior purchase, and then the after purchase evaluation to whether your experience with the lens matches said proposition could be assessed. Otherwise it's purchase validation.  Perhaps you just need more time with it😄

I agree to the above post you're lucky, and perhaps I'd suggest to consolidate your gear so that the FLE 'fits' for you at least for the time being; until such time something else tickles ones interest. 😉. Apologies if I didn't make add any headway to your decision. Any lens/ kits should match an artist expression as means to and end imo.

Goodluck all the best.

[sometimesmaybe]

i have to echo the general sentiments already expressed above.

in economics there is a term called the 'law of diminishing marginal utility'. unless you feel the CV and zeiss lenses are hold you back, then chasing that last 5% of performance may not justify a 4x increase in price. when i was looking at your images (which are absolutely wonderful by BTW) at no point did i think to myself, those images could be just a tad 'better'. 

if you're looking for a 'sea change', i'd go more vintage (rather than more modern) 🤓

 

 

[JoshuaR]

Thank you for these kind and generous comments!

To address the question of why I'm trying the FLE—I'd say it's for the following reasons. 

1. I often shoot indoors and thought it would be good to have f/1.4, both for subject separation and light gathering. In the winter, especially, I found myself using my Sonnar a lot, in bad indoor light, but 35mm is my main focal length. Thus 35/1.4.
2. I used to own the CV 35/1.4 Nokton II MC. I liked it, but sometimes wished for more "IQ" with a more transparent look. That took me to the Ultron. I figured, Why not try the Summilux?
3. A while ago I decided to sell my Q2 and some other unused gear and focus exclusively on the M system. The trade-in value put me within range of the FLE. After reading and reading forever, I decided to just try the lens for myself, in hopes of it becoming my one perfect lens. I'm now near the end of the 14-day free-returns period. 
4. Less rationally: I just wanted to try a top-tier Leica lens. I've long imagined a Zen-like state in which I own the Best Glass Imaginatible™ and so never have to think about gear ever again. 

Now that I have the lens in hand.... Well, it's not at all the case that I'm disappointed by it. I can plainly see (and feel) its quality. To my eye, pictures #3 and #4 above just have more "reality" in them than the others. But I do find myself asking what counts as "enough" for me, given the sort of informal and snapshot-y photography I do. And I suspect that the differences I'm noticing now just won't matter to me in a couple of years' time, when what will be most interesting about these pictures will be their subjects....

On the other hand, the idea of a "Final Kit" of 28 Elmarit, 35 Lux, 50 Lux beckons. If I’m honest, the probably fugitive "finality" is a big part of the appeal of these top-tier lenses for me. It’s like: at last, the summit is within reach…..

Edited April 29, 2023 by JoshuaRothman

[spydrxx]

Perhaps a harsh criticism...throwing money after a problem which is a function of overthinking. Many of us have done it. The reality of the situation is what do you "need" to fulfill your photographic ambitions? Oh- Dear Lord, now you've done it....you got the king of the hill and now question whether it was worth the battle. You'll get lots of guidance on what to do next, so I'll toss in my 2 cents worth. Now that you have the FLE, keep it and if you can afford it, keep the minions as well. You might find, over time, that each suits a different purpose better than the other. If five years from now you find that you are only using one lens consider getting rid of the other. Sometimes things change over time, and you find that your family shots are true gems, worthy of 30 x 40 inch prints. Or perhaps you take up multi-day group hiking, as I did in my late 50s, and you want a lens which is either spectacular or light to produce magnificent memories of what you encountered...then you realize you got rid of just what you want for that special trip. In other words...enjoy both lenses for now and see where your future journeys lead you.😊

[rsolomon]

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This is an ‘art NOT science’ decision. It’s emotional and specifically I mean if you enjoy photography you should have the gear that encourages your to excel. As others have mentioned it won’t be a lens quality issue, it will be a ‘what will assist you’ to drive higher, better, deeper, further.

figure out what excites you, for some it’s just owning, for others it’s getting out there, some have specific wants of a type of photography. 

my guess is you have your answer already your just looking to rationalize it. End of the day.  There are no bad leica , VM, ZM lenes, but some are better to capture what you’re looking to capture, start at the end…. What do you want to capture and then develop a strategy to achieve it.  I’d also say don’t buy a bunch of lenses at one time, buy one and fully commit to it…. Then add another etc… in the end you’ll understand your kit more completely 

[RexGig0]

Well, 35mm is your “most-used focal length by far,” so, yes, I figure it made sense for you “to take the plunge.”

You can clearly see the quality difference between the pictures the FLE produces and the ones you were making with your previous 35mm lens, the 35 Ultron II. The FLE is sharper, the bokeh is better, the transitions between in-focus are more beautiful, and, in spite of its larger size, the FLE is definitely more pleasant to use, from a haptic perspective, especially the focus ring. So, what more does one need, to find a lens to be valid, and valuable?

True, the FLE “seems to open up a whole new world of expensive glass,” but, I will argue that there is no need to “match the FLE.” I have one Leica Summilux-M ASPH FLE, though it is the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, and it may remain my only Leica f/1.4 Summilux lens. (Yes, this 50 does have “Floating Lens Elements.”) Among my slower-than-f/1.4 Leica lenses, there are a variety rendering and character, that do not “match” my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH. It does not bother me that my other f/1.4 M-mount lenses are Zeiss Distagon 35mm ZM and Cosina-Voigtlander 21mm Nokton VM. Of course, my way is a way, not THE way. 🙂

I use my Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1.4 ZM and Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, in that order, far more than I use my other M-mount lenses. It does not bother me that they render differently. Again, my way is a way, not THE way. 🙂

I am certainly not an expert. My training was in evidentiary/forensic/crime scene photography, which is artless. I added the Leica M system, five years ago, to try to re-learn how to love photographing people.

 

 

 

 

[Jeff S]

Return it.  If you miss it enough, buy it again.  

Jeff

[Gregm61]

I change up the lens set I consider “primary” all the time so once I have a lens, I don’t sell it. They all go in and out of use periodically.

[rustyrus]

Do you nee the money? Stop worrying about it otherwise. 

 

The FLE is phenomenal and a joy to use. Keep capturing amazing moments and enjoy one of the best lenses on the planet. Your are capturing priceless times. 

[Lelmer]

1 hour ago, rustyrus said:

Do you nee the money? Stop worrying about it otherwise. 

 

The FLE is phenomenal and a joy to use. Keep capturing amazing moments and enjoy one of the best lenses on the planet. Your are capturing priceless times. 

I entirely agree. 

[newtoleica]

This is really a USA problem. Your ability to return an item in 14 days whatever really makes the buyers remorse burn. In the rest of the world, if you buy it, it’s yours.

you are simply suffering from the anxiety of not getting the instant gratification to justify the spend. You won’t get that in a lens, you need to grow into how best to use the lens and how to love it. 
 

keep it. 

[tedd]

All this thread has done is make me lust after a 35 FLE again, right after I had convinced myself that I was happy with my 35 Summarit/50 Lux ASPH combo for the 100th time. 

I disagree with those that say the Ultron photos wouldn't have been "improved" by the FLE. They are all great images, but taking the first as an example:

• Focus is bang on, but there is a lack of texture at the focus point. I know some people like this soft look, but it's not for me (I thought that it was and then realised it wasn't when I got my first 'grail' lens - the 80mm Summilux-R). 
• Image looks a bit flat/two dimensional and it isn't the lighting. I feel like I could walk into the FLE examples.
• Nervous bokeh is distracting.
• I want more punch in the highlights (may be the edit for this point). 
• The transition from OOF to in focus is a bit jarring, especially from the front.

Again, great photos though, being a new father I've developed a real appreciation for family photos that are interesting to look at even for those not in the family! The colour CV shots have a nostalgic dreamlike quality that could be used for good effect too, I just wouldn't want to be stuck with it all the time and it is much easier to edit a similar look in that edit that out. 

[JoshuaR]

10 minutes ago, tedd said:

 I feel like I could walk into the FLE examples . . . . The colour CV shots have a nostalgic dreamlike quality that could be used for good effect too, I just wouldn't want to be stuck with it all the time . . . .

This is pretty much my experience, and articulates a lot of why I grew interested in the FLE vs. my CV / Zeiss lenses. Judging from others' photographs, the FLE images just include a bit more reality; the pictures I make with my Ultron and Sonnar look a bit more like "photographs." Is that awfully hand-wavey and subjective? Probably, but it's how I react to the photos...

 

2 hours ago, newtoleica said:

This is really a USA problem. Your ability to return an item in 14 days whatever really makes the buyers remorse burn. In the rest of the world, if you buy it, it’s yours.

you are simply suffering from the anxiety of not getting the instant gratification to justify the spend. You won’t get that in a lens, you need to grow into how best to use the lens and how to love it. 

keep it. 

I think you're right, as are others who are saying that I should just chill out and enjoy owning such a wonderful lens. I'm going to hang on to both the FLE and the Ultron and use the Ultron when I need the camera to be small. (Today, for instance, it's raining, and it will be useful to stow it in a jacket pocket.)

Many thanks to everyone who's responded—this has been a genuinely helpful thread.

[PCPix]

On 4/29/2023 at 1:27 PM, JoshuaRothman said:

I used to own the CV 35/1.4 Nokton II MC. I liked it, but sometimes wished for more "IQ"

I have the FLE and the Voigtlander 35/1.4 II MC. 

If I’m just doing a walkabout the Nokton is what I take. If I’m on an assignment or any time when I know I need maximum IQ, it’s the FLE. 

The FLE is my most used lens, representing around 75% of images. It is an exceptionally good lens.... but don’t ask me to get rid of the Nokton - it definitely has something special hidden within!

Is the FLE worth the additional outlay? I would say “Definitely”. 

Should you keep it: “Definitely”. 

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, newtoleica said:

This is really a USA problem. Your ability to return an item in 14 days whatever really makes the buyers remorse burn. In the rest of the world, if you buy it, it’s yours.

you are simply suffering from the anxiety of not getting the instant gratification to justify the spend. You won’t get that in a lens, you need to grow into how best to use the lens and how to love it. 
 

keep it. 

The US also has good rental options, and many dealers willing to work out demos.  I like being able to experience gear to learn about things that no forum survey could ever provide to me, including not just rendering aspects, but handling, ergonomics, controls and actions, etc.
 

Seems to me that indecision is a user issue, not a country policy issue.  This forum survey thing… on many gear issues…is a worldwide disease here.  Better to develop a strong understanding of one’s own vision, style and preferences IMO.

Jeff

[D Fuller]

On 4/29/2023 at 8:27 AM, JoshuaRothman said:

Now that I have the lens in hand.... Well, it's not at all the case that I'm disappointed by it. I can plainly see (and feel) its quality. To my eye, pictures #3 and #4 above just have more "reality" in them than the others. But I do find myself asking what counts as "enough" for me, given the sort of informal and snapshot-y photography I do. And I suspect that the differences I'm noticing now just won't matter to me in a couple of years' time, when what will be most interesting about these pictures will be their subjects....

On the other hand, the idea of a "Final Kit" of 28 Elmarit, 35 Lux, 50 Lux beckons. If I’m honest, the probably fugitive "finality" is a big part of the appeal of these top-tier lenses for me. It’s like: at last, the summit is within reach…..

14 days is simply not enough time to get to know a lens. It’s only enough time to test it and be sure it doesn’t have flaws that weren’t apparent on first look.

One of the things that happens when you acquire better tools is that you are able to be more discerning about the results of your work. But it takes a bit of time to develop the sensitivity/awareness to things that just weren’t there to be seen before. So you have to learn how a new lens draws images and then decide whether you like it or not. Or when you like it’s drawing and when you would prefer another lens’s drawing. (One of the great joys of my career as a filmmaker has been choosing lenses for a project based on the look I wanted. Cinema lenses are so costly that to own them is not practical, so I always rent them—but that gives me a much wider palette to choose from.)

you clearly see things in the FLE that you like. My advice (not that you really need it) is to explore it. 

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[tedd]

11 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

This is pretty much my experience, and articulates a lot of why I grew interested in the FLE vs. my CV / Zeiss lenses. Judging from others' photographs, the FLE images just include a bit more reality; the pictures I make with my Ultron and Sonnar look a bit more like "photographs." Is that awfully hand-wavey and subjective? Probably, but it's how I react to the photos...

I sell high-end audio for a living - hand-wavey conjecture is my day to day! 

[chris7273]

I have bought the new FLE because I wanted the very best 35 fir my new M11. Then I realized it was overpriced, big, and that I could have bought three very good lenses for this amount of money 🙂

but I decided to keep it because the quality is fabulous. Also : i am a bit snob, I can afford the lens, life is short and the price I paid will be forgotten after ten years 🙂