Soft/decentered 35mm Cron Asph V1??

[Brianatkinsphoto]

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So I got a new to me m240 and 35 cron asph v1 a few weeks ago(ebay find). Camera runs fine but I see uneven sharpness in my images in the top right corner and left/right sides. These areas are not the point of focus and I imagine should be equally in/out of focus. Some examples are areas that should be in focus are soft. Other examples are areas that should be equally out of focus from my use of DOF are actually more in focus than other sides of the image. I suspect something is out of alignment in the lens or perhaps even the sensor. This issue is mostly noticeable wide open and present around f2-f6, cleans up around f7 and is barely there unless pixel peeping. Camera arrives to DAG today for mechanical touch ups and im not sure if he can help on this lens issue if it is decentered. I sent all this info to him but wanted to see if anyone out there has a take on this or has experienced it. Could this even just be the field curvature of the lens? I did try the zeiss star test and am pretty confident i had a slightly flared circle indicating decentering but I dont have example images of that. The seller of the camera told me field curvature can produce a flared circle on the zeiss test and he never noticed this issue in his photos but was more of a portrait guy.

Examples should be self explanatory. Areas of interest are circled and numbered, crops are numbered accordingly. Area 1 is the proper sharpness i see, area 2 is the soft and out of focus area that gives me uneven sharpness/DOF results. 
 

dropbox to images here since theyre too big to upload: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5oyljgm2skwb5a4/AACKPUo9MijWo_etxhXT_-U8a?dl=0

-Brian

 

[jaapv]

It is probably missing its Summi…Have a look in the box if you can find it. Seriously : Have it checked out by a qualified repair shop. It happens from time to time that somebody took it apart and reassembled it inexpertly. DAG is the place to go for this. 

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[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Brianatkinsphoto said:

...Camera arrives to DAG today for mechanical touch ups and im not sure if he can help on this lens issue if it is decentered....

 

A decentered lens he can fix. Not sure if he does digital sensor alignment, but he can sure tell you if that's what's wrong.

Sorry, but not clicking on a dropbox link from someone's first post. No telling what's in there 🫠

[Brianatkinsphoto]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

It is probably missing its Summi…Have a look in the box if you can find it. Seriously : Have it checked out by a qualified repair shop. It happens from time to time that somebody took it apart and reassembled it inexpertly. DAG is the place to go for this. 

Yep, camera arrived to DAG today. The lens focus ring was stiff and the RF coupling arm inside the body mount was sticky as well, so I sent everything in for some fresh lubrication. He knows about the sharpness issue so Im sure he can tune the lens if thats whats causing this or perhaps discover the sensor is misaligned or whatever it may be.

[Brianatkinsphoto]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

A decentered lens he can fix. Not sure if he does digital sensor alignment, but he can sure tell you if that's what's wrong.

Sorry, but not clicking on a dropbox link from someone's first post. No telling what's in there 🫠

He mentioned something about not touching ASPH lens elements or something along those lines when we talked on the phone, but we may have miscommunicated since it was a quick exchange of words. Yeah, I didnt mention anything about sensor alignment, kind of assumed it was lens decentering or something, but obviously he knows his stuff and should be able to find out if its the sensor or lens. Well, being I just got my first leica a week ago, ill admit I have had no reason to really make an account and post, but I have lurked the forums. I promise you the dropbox contains beautiful images and good examples of this left vs right side sharpness issue I am facing.

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, Brianatkinsphoto said:

He mentioned something about not touching ASPH lens elements or something along those lines when we talked on the phone, but we may have miscommunicated since it was a quick exchange of words. Yeah, I didnt mention anything about sensor alignment, kind of assumed it was lens decentering or something, but obviously he knows his stuff and should be able to find out if its the sensor or lens. Well, being I just got my first leica a week ago, ill admit I have had no reason to really make an account and post, but I have lurked the forums. I promise you the dropbox contains beautiful images and good examples of this left vs right side sharpness issue I am facing.

Maybe he meant he doesn't adjust floating element groups for close focus (50 Lux ASPH, 35 Lux FLE, etc.). If it were just ASPH elements he didn't adjust, that would be not all but most modern lenses.

Edited April 25 by hdmesa

[Brianatkinsphoto]

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49 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Maybe he meant he doesn't adjust floating element groups for close focus (50 Lux ASPH, 35 Lux FLE, etc.). If it were just ASPH elements he didn't adjust, that would be not all but most modern lenses.

Exactly my thoughts. ASPH lenses from multiple companies are cream of the crop these days I feel like, especially if were talking leica M mount. He did mention today he can see what he can do about the lens after I sent some photo examples so he certainly must have been referring to a different style ASPH design as you have pointed out.

[hdmesa]

45 minutes ago, Brianatkinsphoto said:

Exactly my thoughts. ASPH lenses from multiple companies are cream of the crop these days I feel like, especially if were talking leica M mount. He did mention today he can see what he can do about the lens after I sent some photo examples so he certainly must have been referring to a different style ASPH design as you have pointed out.

Yeah, he may have thought you were talking about the FLE at first. I thought I remembered reading that lenses with floating elements require specialized equipment at Leica to adjust for both near and far focus in tandem.

[Brianatkinsphoto]

Wanted to give a quick update here. Got the camera back from DAG and he assumed I must have a decentered lens. He did not have the correct tools to fix it and said Leica Germany is the only place he knows of that would have the correct tools. Otherwise he fixed up my stiff focusing summicron and oiled up my RF mechanism so the coupling arm in the body wont occasionally stick when focusing. Camera is operating perfectly and I am taking the decentering for what it is and mostly shooting at f4+ to eliminate the problem. My shots at f2 are coming out great in terms of focus, just with softness and I can live with it until I send the camera to Germany. Forgot to ask DAG if it could be a misaligned sensor but he didnt mention this at all and pointed his concern towards the lens. I will adapt my lens onto a sony body this week and test to see if I get the same soft results on a different body, thus confirming it is the lens or sensor out of alignment.

[Anbaric]

39 minutes ago, Brianatkinsphoto said:

I will adapt my lens onto a sony body this week and test to see if I get the same soft results on a different body, thus confirming it is the lens or sensor out of alignment.

Might be hard to judge on a Sony - this lens has a reputation of not playing well with their thick sensor stacks, so the corners may not be great at the best of times. If you can get to a friendly dealer or know someone who shoots Leica, it may be worth trying another lens on your camera, and your lens on another Leica body.

[Brianatkinsphoto]

24 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Might be hard to judge on a Sony - this lens has a reputation of not playing well with their thick sensor stacks, so the corners may not be great at the best of times. If you can get to a friendly dealer or know someone who shoots Leica, it may be worth trying another lens on your camera, and your lens on another Leica body.

Yeah I did read that somewhere. Admittedly the softness really is across the entire right side and low key creeps into the center at f2 so Im sure I can notice it on the sony as long as its only the corners falling off. If you look at the examples in the dropbox link youll see what I mean when looking at the left vs right side of the images. Plan B is to hit my local shop that sells leica stuff, but not sure if they really have a demo lens I can attach, I feel like its more of a new in box kind of place.

[Casey Jefferson]

Mine behaved the similar too, but only visible when pixel peep wide open. At f2 the top left corner seems to have slightly more fringing (as if the different color ray misaligned) compared to the opposite corner which is bottom right which is sharper and less visible fringing, but strangely slightly darker too, this is confirmed by shooting same scene normally as well as shooting with camera upside down.

Sent to Leica Singapore and it's said to be within spec, I assumed it's within tolarence. I was initially bummed about it but eventually accepted it because I eventually feel like I'm nitpicking - the lens performed fine at f5.6 (I shoot f2.8 and 4.0 when lights get low, which the corner doesn't matter anymore even on landscape), and demanding for a perfect copy isn't going to be realistic since Leica themselves weren't particular about it anyway.

If you feel like it doesn't perform up to standard you can always shoot an email to Leica Germany and see what they can advice.

EIDT: it sounds like yours has much worse performance, do email Leica and see what they'll say.

Edited May 10 by Casey Jefferson

[LeicaR10]

Brianatkinsphoto,  Based on my years of experience Don at DAG, he does the best repairs that are within his capability.  You sent it in to the right person for the initial CLA, (Clean, Lubricate and Adjust).  Obviously, the camera and lens (most likely decentered) needs to go to Wetzlar Germany for an indepth CLA for the lens and camera sensor.  I would only send it to Wetzlar so the repair is done correctly.  The easiest way to get this done, is go to a Leica Store and have them send it to Leica and request that Leica Germany only do the CLA and repair.  This eliminates your having to ship and deal with German/US Customs for the repair.  Leica Germany will give an estimate for both.  The camera and lens will come back in amazing condition. My recommendation here is based on 40+ years using Leica cameras and lenses of many types.  You will get most excellent results from Leica Germany.  r/ Mark

[Brianatkinsphoto]

9 hours ago, Casey Jefferson said:

Mine behaved the similar too, but only visible when pixel peep wide open. At f2 the top left corner seems to have slightly more fringing (as if the different color ray misaligned) compared to the opposite corner which is bottom right which is sharper and less visible fringing, but strangely slightly darker too, this is confirmed by shooting same scene normally as well as shooting with camera upside down.

Sent to Leica Singapore and it's said to be within spec, I assumed it's within tolarence. I was initially bummed about it but eventually accepted it because I eventually feel like I'm nitpicking - the lens performed fine at f5.6 (I shoot f2.8 and 4.0 when lights get low, which the corner doesn't matter anymore even on landscape), and demanding for a perfect copy isn't going to be realistic since Leica themselves weren't particular about it anyway.

If you feel like it doesn't perform up to standard you can always shoot an email to Leica Germany and see what they can advice.

EIDT: it sounds like yours has much worse performance, do email Leica and see what they'll say.

Interesting to hear. Would you happen to have any images showing the issue your lens had? Id be curious to take a look. Sounds pretty similar to my issue. Mine does clean up pretty good around f4 and if im shooting below that the issue is really dependent on the subject and focus distance, but it is unfortunately there. Plus, I am comparing wide open performance of this lens to top of the line sony GM lenses since its all I have, frankly the 35 cron must not perform as well despite all the reviews about being sharp corner to corner. My sony lenses shot at 1.2 are literally sharp corner to corner lol, even a distance landscape. Regardless I assume the lens is not up to standard tolerances. Hadnt thought of emailing leica some images to evaluate, could prove useful. Im going to test my lens on my sony this week and if its too hard to see if it has the same issue i will visit my local shop to see if i can test a different leica lens on my 240. If i can isolate the lens and confirm its decentered ill probably upgrade to a lux and shoot it as is for now. If it turns out my body with a different lens gives the same result then ill definitely have to send that in since im keen on keeping my 240. Ive only had this setup for 3 weeks now and am fine shooting it as is for now, just trying to figure out which piece of kit has the issue and then make a game plan.

[Brianatkinsphoto]

8 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Brianatkinsphoto,  Based on my years of experience Don at DAG, he does the best repairs that are within his capability.  You sent it in to the right person for the initial CLA, (Clean, Lubricate and Adjust).  Obviously, the camera and lens (most likely decentered) needs to go to Wetzlar Germany for an indepth CLA for the lens and camera sensor.  I would only send it to Wetzlar so the repair is done correctly.  The easiest way to get this done, is go to a Leica Store and have them send it to Leica and request that Leica Germany only do the CLA and repair.  This eliminates your having to ship and deal with German/US Customs for the repair.  Leica Germany will give an estimate for both.  The camera and lens will come back in amazing condition. My recommendation here is based on 40+ years using Leica cameras and lenses of many types.  You will get most excellent results from Leica Germany.  r/ Mark

Thanks for the input Mark. Yeah DAG did an amazing job and frankly the camera operates as if it is brand new. The lens was a little dry and stiff and my split image RF was sticking at times via the coupling lever not popping back out to the front of the body. All is corrected now, so im just dealing with the likely decentered lens, unless the sensor is misaligned. Closest leica store to portland is up in seattle but could be worth a weekend trip sometime. Im going to test my leica lens on a sony body and perhaps test a different leica lens on my 240(if my local shop can allow a demo lens) and see if I can isolate this issue to the lens or body, DAG and myself both assumed it must be decentering but im not sure if he really had a way to check sensor alignment and didnt mention it. If I confirm that it is the lens I will simply shoot it as is until I upgrade to a lux or something, the body id for sure send across the pond. Ive had this setup for 3 weeks and frankly im trying to shoot it until winter comes back around.

[Casey Jefferson]

40 minutes ago, Brianatkinsphoto said:

Interesting to hear. Would you happen to have any images showing the issue your lens had? Id be curious to take a look. Sounds pretty similar to my issue. Mine does clean up pretty good around f4 and if im shooting below that the issue is really dependent on the subject and focus distance, but it is unfortunately there. Plus, I am comparing wide open performance of this lens to top of the line sony GM lenses since its all I have, frankly the 35 cron must not perform as well despite all the reviews about being sharp corner to corner. My sony lenses shot at 1.2 are literally sharp corner to corner lol, even a distance landscape. Regardless I assume the lens is not up to standard tolerances. Hadnt thought of emailing leica some images to evaluate, could prove useful. Im going to test my lens on my sony this week and if its too hard to see if it has the same issue i will visit my local shop to see if i can test a different leica lens on my 240. If i can isolate the lens and confirm its decentered ill probably upgrade to a lux and shoot it as is for now. If it turns out my body with a different lens gives the same result then ill definitely have to send that in since im keen on keeping my 240. Ive only had this setup for 3 weeks now and am fine shooting it as is for now, just trying to figure out which piece of kit has the issue and then make a game plan.

Sharp corner to corner compared to those non-asph 35 summicrons. As a matter of fact the sharpness progressively drop from the central circle towards corners. I had two copies and they're about the same characteristic, but I never pixel peep on the previous copy.

Objectively the asph performed pretty good for the size (if you compare to sony's) the edges and corners are fuzzy but retain some textures. If you're only not very happy with wide open corners then I doubt Leica can improve it further...At least I wouldn't waste the effort to do so.