Help Needed: C41 Dev Teething Problems (Tetenal Kit). Particles ?

[grahamc]

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Hello

I'm new to C41 processing and have run into a few problems this weekend. Hoping some members will be able to help troubleshoot the likely cause.

The main issue is my scans (some if them, at least) appear extremely dusty.  

But, I'm quite certain this isn't actual dust (I've never experienced any excessive dust problems at all in my B&W developing, in the same home environment) so my guess is this is powdery-type particles left behind in development that now sit on the negative ....or perhaps other imperfections in the development.  I'll post some examples in this thread but some scans look like it's snowing.  

This was evident in my first rolls when my Tetenal kit was fresh, but this has become much more evident in my most recent scans (which are also as the batch of dev/blix/stab reaches it's roll-limit)    I'm using a machine that rotates and keeps constant 38 degrees, and the first rolls were absolutely perfect other than being dusty-like.

Here's some info of my process , as well as some questions that I've been wondering along the way:
 

• I'm using a 1Litre Tetenal Kit , which is good for 16 rolls.  My tank holds 250ml for a 2 rolls.  So when I mixed up the Tetenal I split all of the chemicals into 4 x 250ml batches.  Is this OK ?   My logic was that I can use each 250ml batch for 4 rolls (i.e. 2 processing sessions of 2 rolls) then discard.  The method still makes the same 16 rolls at the end of use of the whole kit, but it has crossed my mind whether this is making the 250ml batches too dirty to use after processing the first lot of 2 rolls ?  I suppose any dirt or remnants would be more concentrated in the second-use of a 250ml batch, vers. if I had poured it back into a 1L stock.   Bare in mind though I noticed more of these particles in the very first dev with fresh chemicals.
• I had some issues with my machine for this latest development and it would only rotate very high speed.  I have now fixed but could this very fast speed contribute to this 'blizzard' appearance?
• I sneaked an extra roll in this 250ml batch of chem (5 rolls instead of 4). I presume this is bad practice but read in many posts that Tetenal goes a little further than the instructions indicate .  Is this snowy look indicative of the chems being at the end-of-life? 
• 2 of the 5 rolls I've developed in this batch were ISO 800 film
• For my latest dev (rolls 4 and 5) I inadvertently stopped the BLIX process a little early - maybe 20% before time.  For future reference, what kind of issues would this potentially cause in dev ?
• I don't shake any of the chem before using , should I ?
• I don't filter any of the chem before using , should I ?
• I keep all chem refrigerated in airtight glass containers and they are all 250ML size so very little air in the top once screwed tight.
• These scans had Vuescan IR dust cleaning switched on which I hoped would help but it didn't.  Once again I've fairly convinced it's not actual dust but failed processing, or residue from processing.
• I have been blowing the negs before scanning, but have never needed to do so with B&W.  The blowing has had no effect on this snowy effect.

Any advice would be gratefully received.   I am aware I need to tighten up much of the above, the most concerning part is that this 'dusty' look was evident on rolls 1 and 2 also.

Sorry for the many questions and thanks in advance !

Graham

Edited April 23, 2023 by grahamc

[grahamc]

You can see in the bottom left of this image (from roll 4/5 of a 250ml batch), there is a powdery quality to the neg/scan .  usually they are more spread out so I can clean them up 

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Edited April 23, 2023 by grahamc

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[grahamc]

Crop of a scan from roll 4/5 of a 250ML batch 

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[grahamc]

you can see I had fun in Lightroom making it usable ......

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[grahamc]

Finally, just for comparison this is a recent B&W neg and scan from a few days prior.  I didn't use even the rocket blower or any spot removal .  So I don't think this is a dust issue in the environment I process in 

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[Pintpot]

Is it possible precipitation from one of the chemicals or contamination from your water?

[grahamc]

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3 hours ago, Pintpot said:

Is it possible precipitation from one of the chemicals or contamination from your water?

Thanks. I used filtered water. What may possibly cause precipitation and how could I avoid in the future ?

3 hours ago, Pintpot said:

Is it possible precipitation from one of the chemicals or contamination from your water?

 

[Pintpot]

Cold can or left standing for some time. Fixers tend to be the worst culprits, could it be overused blx? 

 

[grahamc]

Could certainly be over used Blix (5 rolls of 200 and 800 from this small batch , rather than the 4 rolls recommended ).  I also inadvertently stopped the blix process early on these rolls so this combination could be the culprit this time ?
 

All chemicals are kept refrigerated and shouldn’t have expired yet 

Edited April 23, 2023 by grahamc

[grahamc]

I have separated everything out to 4 x 250ml batches of each chemical (to develop 4 films each, ie 2 uses per batch) , rather than keeping a 1L mix of each chemical.   Could this have an adverse impact (any particles left after the first development get concentrated in the 250ml small batch, perhaps) 

Edited April 23, 2023 by grahamc

[Pintpot]

Well you've got me stumped now!

Perhaps more chemistry minded members can help.

Cheers

[grahamc]

7 minutes ago, Pintpot said:

Well you've got me stumped now!

Perhaps more chemistry minded members can help.

Cheers

Thanks. Over used blix is a possibility here 

Edited April 23, 2023 by grahamc

[250swb]

I've had this problem as well but never found the answer. One kit would be fine, the next kit I'd get bits on the negatives even though mixed and used in the same way. It could be the kit without the particles was used and exhausted before they could appear. Anyway it only happened a couple of times (annoying enough) and I think I've used about three kits in the past year without any problems. I did once think it may be the chemicals drying around the neck of the bottle or inside the cap and then precipitating back into the solution when used but this may be a red herring.

[grahamc]

17 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I've had this problem as well but never found the answer. One kit would be fine, the next kit I'd get bits on the negatives even though mixed and used in the same way. It could be the kit without the particles was used and exhausted before they could appear. Anyway it only happened a couple of times (annoying enough) and I think I've used about three kits in the past year without any problems. I did once think it may be the chemicals drying around the neck of the bottle or inside the cap and then precipitating back into the solution when used but this may be a red herring.

How interesting.  Thanks Steve, that's annoying - but useful to know.  I'll keep an eye on it .  I think I stretched this 250ML batch too far also (3 sessions , total 5 rolls and 2 of those being ISO 800).  Whilst over-use could be an issue in my case I don't think time/expiry is, as I only mixed this 2 weeks ago and all batches air sealed and refrigerated. 

It will be interesting to see how a new 250ML batch goes from the same kit.  Cross-contamination during a developing session can't be ruled out as these were my first rolls of C41 development so things got a little rushed at times. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by grahamc

[fotomas]

Could be so much different reasons. So hard to say what happened here. In general I would say that color film is more prone to this, than b&w.  I had similar issues. We installed a 5 mµ filter for the washing water. That made it much better, but it is not totally gone. 5 mµ is recommended for the E-6 process also.

You say't that you refrigerated  the chemicals. This can cause parts to separate out of the solutions.

Years ago we had trouble with the blix from Tetenal. This had to be mixed up of two components and the one with the thiosulphate decomposed and sulfur had fallen out even in a new package. You can recognize it on the basis of a yellowish precipitate.
But this was long ago. Chemestry today may be different.

[grahamc]

22 hours ago, fotomas said:

Could be so much different reasons. So hard to say what happened here. In general I would say that color film is more prone to this, than b&w.  I had similar issues. We installed a 5 mµ filter for the washing water. That made it much better, but it is not totally gone. 5 mµ is recommended for the E-6 process also.

You say't that you refrigerated  the chemicals. This can cause parts to separate out of the solutions.

Years ago we had trouble with the blix from Tetenal. This had to be mixed up of two components and the one with the thiosulphate decomposed and sulfur had fallen out even in a new package. You can recognize it on the basis of a yellowish precipitate.
But this was long ago. Chemestry today may be different.

Thanks for this. I'm looking forward to trying a fresh batch next weekend as I think perhaps I over used the Blix.
Let's see if there is improvement 

[Martin B]

On 4/23/2023 at 5:38 PM, grahamc said:

All chemicals are kept refrigerated and shouldn’t have expired yet 

This is the likely issue - don't refrigerate C-41 nor E-6 process chemicals to extend life! Crystallization can take place when too cold and components can form clumps. Best keep chemicals at room temperature between 18 to 22 deg C. If you want to extend life of the chemicals, fill them in a bottle nearly to top to avoid as much as possible an air gap inside (reduces oxidation of the chemicals). 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Martin B

[Ouroboros]

I’ve also had this issue with Tetenal C41 1tr kits.

It seems a bit random, some batches of chemistry will go the distance and another batch will produce this sediment in the dev after only the first few films which effectively renders my mf negs unusable (6x6, 6x9 & 6x17), which is an infuriating and expensive loss.
 

 I tend to process the full quota of films as soon as I can after mixing the chemistry, usually over a couple of days, and I stopped leaving the thermostatically controlled tempering bath (mine is a Nova bath) switched on overnight.  
 

It seemed to help with a couple of batches which were problem free and then the problem reappeared in a subsequent batch, so that was a blind alley.

I have a CineStill C41 kit to try when I’m back from my travels.

 

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I have not seen this problem, but it does look like it is an issue with the chemistry, not your technique.  I would take a flashlight and look carefully at the solutions (pour them into a clear container if necessary). My money would be on precipitate in the fixer. Have you looked at the bottom of the original bottles? Fixer tends to go yellow and gather at the bottom of the bottle if it is too old. I would not be surprised if the kit was old. I would also reach out to Tetenal themselves. They will likely be able to give you better advice, as well as a replacement if they think it is their fault, and they probably will be able to tell you by batch number how old the kit is. They have been responsive to me in the past when I wrote to them directly (to see if there was an Icelandic distributor). They have a UK office too, which is the one I wrote to, I believe.

As for filtering, I have taken to filtering my chemicals as I mix them. I have a funnel with a wire mesh filter in the spout. It is not going to stop the smallest particles, but it does a good job of removing undissolved sediment and dust/hairs etc. I also would not be all that trusting of filtered water if you purchased it. I have bought deionized water from a supplier to use in chemistry and found that it was actually not free of particles. Now I use a 5 micron filter on the water for the whole darkroom. That cleaned things up quite a bit. Just remember to run it for five minutes or so when you first put in a new filter, so you can wash out most of the fibers left loose on the filter.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

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[grahamc]

On 4/25/2023 at 11:14 PM, Ouroboros said:

I’ve also had this issue with Tetenal C41 1tr kits.

It seems a bit random, some batches of chemistry will go the distance and another batch will produce this sediment in the dev after only the first few films which effectively renders my mf negs unusable (6x6, 6x9 & 6x17), which is an infuriating and expensive loss.
 

 I tend to process the full quota of films as soon as I can after mixing the chemistry, usually over a couple of days, and I stopped leaving the thermostatically controlled tempering bath (mine is a Nova bath) switched on overnight.  
 

It seemed to help with a couple of batches which were problem free and then the problem reappeared in a subsequent batch, so that was a blind alley.

I have a CineStill C41 kit to try when I’m back from my travels.

 

 

Oh dear !  That's a shame .  Please let us know how you find the Cinestill kit in comparison Steve