Leica Flash with Leica MP

[Albert Sych]

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Hi there

I am trying to use Leica SF 40 flash with my Leica MP. I put the flash into the camera’s hot shoe. Then I press the shutter release button when I take a picture but the flash doesn’t fire.

Just wanted to ask if you may happen to know%

1. Does pressing the release button on MP trigger the flash?

2. Does MP communicate the aperture, shutter speed and ISO set manually on MP?

3.  Can the flash work in A mode? I know it won’t work in TTL mode on the flash.

Thank you 

 

[wattsy]

What shutter speed are you using? Don't forget flash sync speed is 1/50 or slower on the MP.

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[Albert Sych]

Yes, indeed I set it to 50 or lower. The thing is that the flash is not triggered by pressing the shutter release button on MP. And I am wondering if MP (admittedly manual) still transfers any details to and triggers the flash. And if the flash could then work in A (non-TTL) mode. 

[RobW0]

The flash does not get any info from the camera, so can not work in an auto mode. The only way the flash will know what aperture the lens is set at is for you to set it on the flash also.

[Anbaric]

As far as I can tell from the instructions, both the 'A' and 'TTL' modes of this flash are TTL modes that require a camera with TTL flash metering, which the MP does not have:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1110227/Leica-Sf-40.html

So with the MP it's manual mode only, as above (no data is transferred from the camera to the flash).

Incidentally, on some other flash units, 'A' has a different meaning - a basic non-TTL auto mode that uses a sensor in the flash itself. Many older third-party flash units have this mode. You might want to seek out one of these if you'd prefer some level of automation.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Anbaric

[Fotoklaus]

Get a Metz 32 CT3 for 10 Dollars/Euro and you are fine. 

[Albert Sych]

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Many thanks all for your helpful replies. Indeed the flash manual is quite cryptic on the matter, but in one place it does mention that both TTL and A modes are in fact TTL modes. So, yes, the flash won’t get any data from camera and does not get it independently without the camera (by off camera pre flash). So the only working mode is manual flash. But at least the flash is triggered by MP’s shutter release button. So now I know how to work — hard to see it with film than digital : )

Edited April 17, 2023 by Albert Sych

[wlaidlaw]

Does the MP not have the dual photocells that my M7 does? The M7 can for example do HSS flash at 1/250, 1/500 and 1/1000, as long as the flash has the SCA3502 Mk.4 or higher communication protocol. It is my understanding that both of the Nissin flashes, the SF40 and SF60 emulate 3502/5 protocol. I have not used these flashes (I have both of them) on my M7 but I have on my R9, which electronically for flash purposes, is very similar to the M7 (and the MP?) and I could get both HSS and second curtain. Both the M7 and the R9 communicate shutter speed to these flashes but this may be a consequence of both of these cameras having electronic solenoid control of the shutter release and timing, which I don't think the MP has. 

Wilson

[hepcat]

4 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Does the MP not have the dual photocells that my M7 does? The M7 can for example do HSS flash at 1/250, 1/500 and 1/1000, as long as the flash has the SCA3502 Mk.4 or higher communication protocol. It is my understanding that both of the Nissin flashes, the SF40 and SF60 emulate 3502/5 protocol. I have not used these flashes (I have both of them) on my M7 but I have on my R9, which electronically for flash purposes, is very similar to the M7 (and the MP?) and I could get both HSS and second curtain. Both the M7 and the R9 communicate shutter speed to these flashes but this may be a consequence of both of these cameras having electronic solenoid control of the shutter release and timing, which I don't think the MP has. 

Wilson

The M7 is the only (AFAIK) M body with an electronic shutter.  The rest are all mechanical, including the MP. 

[Anbaric]

8 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Does the MP not have the dual photocells that my M7 does? The M7 can for example do HSS flash at 1/250, 1/500 and 1/1000, as long as the flash has the SCA3502 Mk.4 or higher communication protocol. It is my understanding that both of the Nissin flashes, the SF40 and SF60 emulate 3502/5 protocol. I have not used these flashes (I have both of them) on my M7 but I have on my R9, which electronically for flash purposes, is very similar to the M7 (and the MP?) and I could get both HSS and second curtain. Both the M7 and the R9 communicate shutter speed to these flashes but this may be a consequence of both of these cameras having electronic solenoid control of the shutter release and timing, which I don't think the MP has.

The MP has no dedicated flash circuitry at all, just simple hotshoe sync like the M6 Classic, or indeed the M4-2.

[Huss]

8 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Does the MP not have the dual photocells that my M7 does? The M7 can for example do HSS flash at 1/250, 1/500 and 1/1000, as long as the flash has the SCA3502 Mk.4 or higher communication protocol. It is my understanding that both of the Nissin flashes, the SF40 and SF60 emulate 3502/5 protocol. I have not used these flashes (I have both of them) on my M7 but I have on my R9, which electronically for flash purposes, is very similar to the M7 (and the MP?) and I could get both HSS and second curtain. Both the M7 and the R9 communicate shutter speed to these flashes but this may be a consequence of both of these cameras having electronic solenoid control of the shutter release and timing, which I don't think the MP has. 

Wilson

https://www.overgaard.dk/pdf/MP_Instructions_en.pdf

[wlaidlaw]

Effectively the same as my M4-P for flash.

I do wonder if something has been mistranslated on the SF40 manual from Japanese. I cannot see the point of providing an A mode and a TTL mode, which appear to do the same thing. On the SF24 for example there is an auto mode, where one can set an aperture on the flash, matching that on the lens and then a thyristor on the flash controls the length of the flash output period to suit (on some other flashes it controls the flash intensity) and there is no need for a TTL flash cell in the camera. Alternatively on the SF24 one can set to TTL where the camera needs to have a secondary flash metering cell and usually the camera shoe has 4 extra contacts to communicate with the camera (Leica uses the Nikon pin out on their shoe so that a Nikon SC-18 cable can provide off camera flash use). There the reflected light reaching the TTL cell controls the flash length or intensity. I think I am correct in saying that flashes which use a capacitor fired flash Xenon tube usually control the flash period and LED flashes control the flash intensity. Unfortunately I have a half exposed film in my M4-P or I would do some experimenting with the SF40 and SF60. If I can think of another of my cameras without film in them which would work, I will give it a go and report back. 

Like others I have bought a Metz 36 C2 to use on my Barnack cameras requiring a PC cable trigger (IIf and IIIg + Reid and Sigrist 3-2). it can do either hot shoe or cable which is changed automatically when you plug in the min jack plug into the base of the flash. It can do wholly manual or thyristor auto controlled.

Wilson

Edited May 24, 2023 by wlaidlaw

[Huss]

The first clue is the single point of contact on the hot shoe.  If it did any ttl trickery, had any kind of dedication etc, there would be multiple contact points on the hot shoe of the MP.

The M7 as four electronic contacts on the hot shoe.  As does the M6 TTL - the TTL being the designation for the flash control.  The MP has one.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Huss

[Anbaric]

15 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

I do wonder if something has been mistranslated on the SF40 manual from Japanese. I cannot see the point of providing an A mode and a TTL mode, which appear to do the same thing.

It does seem odd, but the A mode seems to be a less flexible TTL mode - completely auto, without the option to dial in flash compensation. It's a shame there is apparently no non-TTL auto mode when Leica has cameras in its current range that would benefit from it. Maybe they were limited by what Nissin were able to provide when Leica had to switch away from Metz? The SF40 seems to be a Leicafied Nissin i40, which comes in several TTL variants for various systems. I suppose TTL flash is pretty much universal outside the world of retro film cameras, and it would have been extra work to build in the sensor and circuitry for non-TTL auto to support a single niche manufacturer.

[adli]

For Auto to work, you need a sensor in the flash, while TTL uses the camera sensor.  Moderne flashes does not have their own sensors.

[wlaidlaw]

There is no visible thyristor window on either the SF40 or SF60, which would explain the absence of a traditional Auto flash mode on these flashes. Still I always have my MZ36-C2, SF24 and SF58 flashes for that facility and a large carton with around 1500 assorted flash bulbs in it, which I bought at a bankruptcy items auction for $30. 

Wilson

[grahamc]

31 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

It does seem odd, but the A mode seems to be a less flexible TTL mode - completely auto, without the option to dial in flash compensation. It's a shame there is apparently no non-TTL auto mode when Leica has cameras in its current range that would benefit from it. Maybe they were limited by what Nissin were able to provide when Leica had to switch away from Metz? The SF40 seems to be a Leicafied Nissin i40, which comes in several TTL variants for various systems. I suppose TTL flash is pretty much universal outside the world of retro film cameras, and it would have been extra work to build in the sensor and circuitry for non-TTL auto to support a single niche manufacturer.

I'm new to flash but use the SF-24D on my M6 TTL.    The way I have understood the differences in 'A' mode and TTL mode (with TTL enabled cameras such as the M6TTL, M7 but not MP) is :
 

• A Mode the flash won't read Aperture and ISO setting from the camera, so both camera and flash must be set independently to the same settings for these parameters.  But in TTL mode on compatible film M, the flash will automatically recognise ISO / Aperture when the shutter is pressed lightly (same as taking a light meter reading).  Only benefit of this is more convenient and less fiddly 
• In A mode, the flash is reading it's exposure off the sensor on the front of the flash.   But in TTL mode it's reading through the lens. This becomes relevant / beneficial when using handheld flash off camera (using a TTL compatible cord), or bouncing flash.  (Although of course if the flash is mounted on top of the camera then the sensor from flash and through-the-lens are close enough for their to be no metering advantage and the advantage of TTL becomes simply the convenience in reading the camera's settings and not having to match them yourself on the flash). 

So there are quite useful differences to these modes when used on a TTL-enabled body, especially used off camera .  Is this relevant to what you mentioned, or did I misunderstand something ?   

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by grahamc

[Anbaric]

25 minutes ago, grahamc said:

I'm new to flash but use the SF-24D on my M6 TTL.

I believe the SF24D is a Metz-built flash that has both a dedicated TTL mode that will work only with specific cameras and a traditional non-TTL 'A' mode that uses a light sensor in the flash itself and will work with any camera. The Nissin-built SF40 has an 'A' mode that is just a more limited version of its TTL mode, which will only work with specific cameras. The only way to use the SF40 with other cameras is to use the fully manual mode.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Anbaric

[grahamc]

2 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I believe the SF24D is a Metz-built flash that has both a dedicated TTL mode that will work only with specific cameras and a traditional non-TTL 'A' mode that uses a sensor in the flash itself and will work with any camera. The Nissin-built SF40 has an 'A' mode that is just a more limited version of its TTL mode, which will only work with specific cameras. The only way to use the SF40 with other cameras is to use the fully manual mode.

Oh OK, thanks for clarifying .  I can confirm that what you've said about the SF24D is correct in use also 

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