M11 Monochrom vs. M10 Monochrom - Image Thread, including some links to DNGs

[Erato]

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3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

I will post links to download the DNGs of these two tomorrow and hopefully a number of others. I still need to go through some of the pictures. 

M10M from opened DNG in LR otherwise not touched

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M11M from opened DNG in LR otherwise not touched

Thank you so much for sharing these DNGs with us. Could it be a motion blur captured on the M11 sample?

Screenshots attached, just in case that I might got it wrong.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

I'm thinking, instead of doing these comparisons with the M10M, perhaps it would make sense to shoot the same scene with M11M without filter, with yellow filter, and with orange filter and show these.

Honestly, the thing I am most curious about is to see what they both look like compared to each other at very high ISO...would love to see a dng of the same scene with both at ISO 50000 or 25000 etc. That would give me a better idea of how they differ, as I imagine that at anything other than very high ISOs  both are going to be separated primarily by resolution and the tone curve out of camera.

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[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Erato:

Thank you so much for sharing these DNGs with us. Could it be a motion blur captured on the M11 sample?

Screenshots attached, just in case that I might got it wrong.

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Yes, camera shake. Here's one at 1/180 sec. that is tack-sharp: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g476142832-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=2rbR3CmhqtUMBXZnGHX8eD9fWdVdHIej_KyPUSCYD58=

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Stuart Richardson:

Honestly, the thing I am most curious about is to see what they both look like compared to each other at very high ISO...would love to see a dng of the same scene with both at ISO 50000 or 25000 etc. That would give me a better idea of how they differ, as I imagine that at anything other than very high ISOs  both are going to be separated primarily by resolution and the tone curve out of camera.

Will do them, but I need some time. I went all the way up to ISO 12500 in a church yesterday. I will post those later. There is no noise advantage of the M11M over the M10M if one handles a lowlight image too truculently. Were the M11M has an advantage is in shadow detail and highlight control. The M10M may also need to be shot at a slightly higher ISO for the same exposure. The first two are not perfectly sharp, the third is, but they serve the purpose of illustrating this point. All at 1/125 sec. 

M10M with ISO 3200, DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g35339914-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=WCbuLg0vCwu0ADn1uSg7aeWOJiqewg0X6xZcf8qStSM

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M11M with ISO 2500, DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g3402283-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=mews92Y8n9QwH5jE-V-plHBNpsjFLKeobDdcm3iXrF4=

M11M with ISO 3200, DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g152714279-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=Mmd_JgKK19rW-bJs1a-wOs4mg3Es9eJ-HMz_4Berr20=

[Erato]

4小時前，Chaemono說：

是的，相機抖動。 這是1/180秒的一個，很鋒利：https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g476142832-o750076470.dat? dl=2&tk=2rbR3CmhqtUMBXZnGHX8eD9fWdVdHIej_KyPUSCYD58=

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Many thanks for your time and efforts on this...^^b

[Chaemono]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Erato:

Many thanks for your time and efforts on this...^^b

You're welcome. I'm doing these to decide which of the two cameras to keep. I don't have an M11. Below is the same picture taken at 1/80 sec. It's sharp enough. I'm posting it to show that it is possible to shoot the M11M at shutter speeds below 1/2x(focal length) and get sharp pictures. DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g21923616-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=guVRn00NcBld7NnzeAM0hnXOPy0KhFSDX1OKQg93hwE=

My conclusion so far is, if one is a lowlight/street shooter and thinks 'screw the mid-tones in B&W photography', there is no reason to upgrade to the M11M from the M10M. If one shoots theater, ballet, fine arts, or landscape and prefers a wider tonal range as a starting point, the M11M is a better option, also with the use of filters (need to check the effect they create on those creamy files). 

Here the second picture in 24.6 MB exported from LR after processed to taste.  https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-nrdw8D/ 

I absolutely love the tonality of the M11M files and don't think I could get that starting point with a color camera easily. I always felt that the look of the M246 and the M10M DNG files could be easily emulated with color cameras. 

Here the M11M shot at 1/80 sec

.

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Here the image I linked to the SmugMug gallery above

[snooper]

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7 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Yes, camera shake. Here's one at 1/180 sec. that is tack-sharp:

Thanks so much for posting these.

So we’re back to square one with any M11 it seems: a real risk of camera shake or very light motion blur… Just wondering why in full day light anything under 1/180th sec isn’t safe. Not sure about the improvement, problem being you can’t see it before post. Happy I got the very last brand new M10M in a Leica store at a very good price.

 

[algrove]

The advantage of an M11 is keeping SS high with lower noise in order to avoid shake. I am old and have used 1/500 as my minimum for years even with 24MP  cameras. If a 90mm lens I use 1/1000.

[Chaemono]

Before I show the ISO 12500 pictures, I want to post the in-camera JPEGs from #1. The link to the SmugMug gallery shows them in full resolution. In LR both DNGs are equally exposed according to the histogram. On the M10M in this scene I used exposure compensation of -1/3 and I think I had to. Exposure compensation was 0 for the M11M shot. One main advantage of the M11M over the M10M is that it controls highlights well and allows, therefore, for an overall better exposed image to begin with. NR and sharpening for JPGs was set to zero or standard in both cameras. The lens was the APO 50 Summicron at f/4.

 

In-camera full res JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-nrdw8D/

M10M in-camera JPEG wth EV -1/3, ISO 160 @1/2000 sec.

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M11M in-camera JPEG with EV 0, ISO 125 @1/1500 sec.

 

Edit: Look at the tones of the lady on the pedestal in the M11M picture.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb snooper:

Thanks so much for posting these.

So we’re back to square one with any M11 it seems: a real risk of camera shake or very light motion blur… Just wondering why in full day light anything under 1/180th sec isn’t safe. Not sure about the improvement, problem being you can’t see it before post. Happy I got the very last brand new M10M in a Leica store at a very good price.

 

Maybe, yes. But just to put things into perspective. I went to bed late since I had to learn the settings, exercised at 6.30AM, had some breakfast on the go only to find out that Frankfurt was covered in fog in the morning. So, I drove to Mainz, where it was sunny (that's where the Pfizer vaccine was developed BTW, by BioNTech 😂) and then back to Frankfurt at noon. I'm changing lenses all day long, carry the 75 Noctilux along, and am trying to be unobtrusive and quick with two cameras around my neck while people are moving around me and into the scenes I want to take pictures of. Getting a sharp enough shot at 1/80 sec. was not a priority yesterday.

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, snooper said:

So we’re back to square one with any M11 it seems: a real risk of camera shake or very light motion blur… 

 

No.  Please read this discussion. Magnification is the issue, not the camera or MP.

Jeff

[Chaemono]

The ISO 12500 files now. Again, the M11M shows better control of highlights. If one zooms in, the windows are better resolved in the M10M picture but this is likely due to the focus point not being exactly on the cross. In the M11M image, the focus point is definitely on the cross. These were taken with the 75 Noctilux stopped down to f/2.8, if I remember correctly. Due to more MP, the M11M shows no noise advantage at this ISO when shadows are lifted and exposure is properly adjusted.

M10M DNG download here:https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g174410962-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=B0ckiPfAE9w5EA1vLvm427DqyJwAfjoFTo2Klm7y1rE=

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M11M DNG download here:https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g152111863-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=IrNxEN0l37hnbikXzsrPwWKkR863PxxFgqklnuuAPMU=

[Chaemono]

The M10M is a better camera for lowlight street photography, I think. The way the pictures of the M11M come out with lots of mid-tones in lowlight street looks ugly IMO. I took some images from ISO 6400 to ISO 100000. I may post the JPGs to show how they come out. There is more shadow detail recoverability with the M11M but also a lot more noise as a result in the shadows. The highlights of the high ISO lowlight M11M pictures can also be pulled back more but then one gets this over-the-top HDR look. The more contrasty files of the M10M would work a lot better in lowlight street IMO.

[Chaemono]

Here is an ISO 6400 picture in a high contrast scene with each camera. I opened the DNGs in LR with default settings, exported them as TIFFs, processed them in Topaz DeNoise, then reimported them into LR, and processed them there. I'm not providing the DNGs but there are huge JPGs in the SmugMug gallery I linked that can be downloaded. I think the M10M does really well in high ISO, high contrast, lowlight scenes. It does require a bit more processing to try to match what the M11M shows more effortlessly. But the M11M ends up with more white pixels in the dark areas. The M10M shows no white pixels in the dark areas.

Edit: Taken @1/125 sec.

Downloadable high res JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-qZ7CKG/

M10M ISO 6400 processed

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M11M ISO 6400 processed

Edited April 16, 2023 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

It turns out that the in-camera RAW processing into JPEGs is kind of sh!t in the M10M, it’s much better in the M11M. The pictures in #29 can be made to look pretty much the same, including the tones on the statue of Lady Justice, when one processes the DNGs him- or herself. 

[algrove]

While I appreciate all these comparisons, to me once I had the M11, the M11M was my only missing link since now all bodies have the same terrific battery and use the same chargers not to mention controls like the top button many use for manual zoom in for fine focus instead of the automatic zoom in when turning the focus ring which is irritating to me if wanting to make fine adjustments. Also the EVF's behave the same when wanted/needed.

In addition both cameras now can have the menu setup making for fast camera swaps if in the field. That said I start out with Mono in street and city environments since B&W street is what I like. Plus once in the Mono mood I seldom switch to the color mood. This is sounding like a second Mono might be needed for when I want a 35 and 50 at the ready.

[Chaemono]

I hear you.

Now those JPEGs in #29 processed in LR to match from the DNGs, less compressed here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-nrdw8D/

M10M

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M11M

[Chaemono]

M10M is an excellent camera. Highlight detail is not an issue if exposed properly and the files allow for shadow detail recovery with no white pixels even at high ISO. M11M has better metering, produces better overall exposed DNG files, has slightly more DR, has a wider tonal range in the mid-tones, and gives a better starting point for processing the files IMO. It will show white pixels at high ISO when the shadows are pushed hard, though.

Moving the texture slider to +100 is a default setting upon import of the M11M DNGs now.

Starting point M10M

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Starting point M11M

Edited April 18, 2023 by Chaemono

[ejg1890]

Maybe it’s just me, how I’m viewing the pics or I didn’t review all the pics, but based on the first 4-6 posts on the thread I preferred the M10M photos more. The white appears “true” white while the M11M whites are a “dirtier” or slightly off white without any adjustments. 

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[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb ejg1890:

Maybe it’s just me, how I’m viewing the pics or I didn’t review all the pics, but based on the first 4-6 posts on the thread I preferred the M10M photos more. The white appears “true” white while the M11M whites are a “dirtier” or slightly off white without any adjustments. 

Good point. I think, we are talking about two things here. One is, which camera gives me a "better" starting point which implies that I can end up at a completely different place from where I began. Undoubtedly, the preference for a starting point will be influenced by the preference for a B&W look or style. A "screw the mid-tones/high key" kind of guy or gal will likely prefer the M10M files as a starting point. However, even he or she will still be able to make the M11M files look to his or her liking even though those files appear flatter, creamier, uglier, more boring, richer in the mid-tones, if not by moving a few sliders in LR then by using Silver Efex. 😂

The second thing that we are talking about here is, can the M11M cure the two digital B&W nasties. The answer, based on what I've seen so far, is clearly, yes. It's the first digital FF camera to do so in a very impressive and in such a light-weight and compact way.

https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2017/07/how-to-cure-the-digital-bw-nasties.html

There are two reasons why almost all digital B&W is like drinking rotten pond scum:

1. The first is that B&W film is biased toward richness and detail in the highlights and lacks information in the shadows (hence the old adage "expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights," because if you didn't get the shadows right in camera you weren't going to be able to get them by prestidigitation later), and this happens to match how our eyes see. Digital does the opposite: it has a low amount of detail in the highlights and has vast reserves of information in the shadows. Ever taken a raw file with a camera high in DR and tried to dig the shadows in a good raw converter? It's amazing. This does not match how our eyes see. Bad highlight detail isn't just a problem with digital B&W: it plagues all digital. We're getting used to digital highlights now, thanks to the habituation of constant bombardment, but that's like learning to love an ugly dog. It still doesn't make it pretty.

2. The second reason why almost all digital B&W is slathered with pasty poodle excrement is that digital depresses the middle values. Compared to a scale of theoretically ideal tones, Zone VII is rendered as Zone VI if not Zone V, Zone V is rendered as Zone IV if not Zone III. It looks terrible. Rodinal used to have this effect on film. Mildly, not as bad as a lot of digital. Okay, okay, granted, it's a "look," and a fewphotographers have done it on purpose and can make it look aesthetically coherent. Emphasis on "few." Especially if their subjects are dark and airless. But most digital B&W is that way by default and it looks awful.

 

And here how to convert the M11M files into black and white

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Edited April 18, 2023 by Chaemono