Landscape filter set

[kobra]

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Hi all,

I've read a few topics regarding filters, but didn't find something specific so starting this thread. 

One of the consequences of upgrading to the SL system (much larger overall than my APS-C system) has been to replace other accessories. Filters are next on the list. In the past, I've had a filter holder and square filters, which of course works for all types of filters, including ND grads; but I really did not like the bulk and inconvenience of using them.

A really nice touch from Leica is that all of their SL zooms have an 82mm filter, and so does the Sigma 20 ART that I have for night sky photography. So, here's what I'm thinking... KASE filters get very good reviews (I know others do also), but what is interesting is their 82mm Revolution magnetic kit. They have a kit with a thin bezel (for the 16-35), a regular bezel, along with the CPL, ND8, ND64 and ND1000 and a magnetic lens cap. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BQ88BL38?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details 

So, I think that would cover off polarizer and longer exposures, but it doesn't cover off grad filters. (note I did have a smaller grad filter in the past, but it vignetted a lot on my WA lens and I didn't use it, so inexperienced here)

I'm trying to get as convenient and least bulky kit as I can while still performing well... so some questions:

-is there any reason NOT to go with the KASE circular magnetic kit for CPL and ND set?

-are circular ND grad filters going to work well? Or do I need to go with the square holder and 100mm square filters? (trying not to go back to that if I can avoid it). And I do realize this may be a bit restrictive with composition, but hoping someone can jump in and say "yes it works ok if..." or "no, it really doesn't work well in practice"... 

-Can you recommend what type and strength of ND grad filters to get? Hard vs soft? Which stops to get? (ie, do I need several, or is there a 'happy medium' that covers a lot of situations) And, maybe the answer is to do exposure bracketing because that may work well enough (I've tried that for clouds if not too fast moving, but obviously a challenge for ocean scenes) 

I hope the above ramblings aren't too hard to follow  

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

Brad

[JohnathanLovm]

Based on your questions, I recommend try variable ND filter as starter to find your need. Then you can make decision based on it.

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[beewee]

For NDs, one thing to consider is whether you need polarization. For landscape, if I’m shooting with NDs, it’s often for moving water in which polarization is also often quite useful. In this case, a polarizing ND filter is a much better choice than stacking multiple filters. I’ve been fairly happy with the polarizing NDs from Polar Pro. 

As for ND strength, 3 stop (8) and 6 stop (64) are most useful but 10 stop (1000) can come in handy for moving water during daytime.

Personally, I don’t think I’d bother with graduated filters these days unless you’re shooting film. The SL2-S has so much dynamic range that there’s really no need to use grads because you can do everything in lightroom with better results. Grads will just slow you down and it won’t be has fine tuned as something like a single-click AI sky selection function in LR.

All in all, I’d go with: CPL, CPL+ND8, CPL+ND64, CPL+ND1000 and call it done. If you don’t want a polarization effect with ND, just turn the filter so the polarizing effect is minimized/gone.

Here’s an example of the Polar Pro CPL + ND1000 shot in the mid-day sun with SL2-S + 16-35 SL. Colors are decent without any weird casts:

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And a few others with the CPL+ND64, also SL2-S + 16-35 SL:

Edited April 10, 2023 by beewee

[kobra]

33 minutes ago, JohnathanLovm said:

Based on your questions, I recommend try variable ND filter as starter to find your need. Then you can make decision based on it.

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@JohnathanLovm - thanks for the suggestion and for sharing a great image! 

I've heard of the variable ND filters... these are not graduated filters, correct? Rather, it seems as you rotate they just get darker through the whole image? Thanks!

Brad

[kobra]

27 minutes ago, beewee said:

For NDs, one thing to consider is whether you need polarization. For landscape, if I’m shooting with NDs, it’s often for moving water in which polarization is also often quite useful. In this case, a polarizing ND filter is a much better choice than stacking multiple filters. I’ve been fairly happy with the polarizing NDs from Polar Pro. 

As for ND strength, 3 stop (8) and 6 stop (64) are most useful but 10 stop (1000) can come in handy for moving water during daytime.

Personally, I don’t think I’d bother with graduated filters these days unless you’re shooting film. The SL2-S has so much dynamic range that there’s really no need to use grads because you can do everything in lightroom with better results. Grads will just slow you down and it won’t be has fine tuned as something like a single-click AI sky selection function in LR.

All in all, I’d go with: CPL, CPL+ND8, CPL+ND64, CPL+ND1000 and call it done. If you don’t want a polarization effect with ND, just turn the filter so the polarizing effect is minimized/gone.

Here’s an example of the Polar Pro CPL + ND1000 shot in the mid-day sun with SL2-S + 16-35 SL. Colors are decent without any weird casts:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

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And a few others with the CPL+ND64, also SL2-S + 16-35 SL:

Thanks @beewee for the info and I always enjoy your wonderful images! 

I think based on what you shared, the KASE kit that I was looking at would cover off everything. I have done layers in LR (and C1), so I do know what you mean. 

But, I have the SL2 and on another thread it was suggested that the SL2, even at base ISO, may have a hard time capturing a very high DR image; for example a scene with a lot of shadows and bright sky with clouds. This is where it was recommended to use GND filters to preserve highlights in the sky while brightening the image a bit so that there was not as much shadow recovery required. 

Have you compared the SL2 to the SL2-S in this specific case? I do know that the SL2-S has more DR, but I'm trying to wrap my head around how many times would I not have the DR I need with the SL2 when shooting typical landscapes. 

Thanks for any further comments!

Brad

 

 

 

[beewee]

10 minutes ago, kobra said:

Thanks @beewee for the info and I always enjoy your wonderful images! 

I think based on what you shared, the KASE kit that I was looking at would cover off everything. I have done layers in LR (and C1), so I do know what you mean. 

But, I have the SL2 and on another thread it was suggested that the SL2, even at base ISO, may have a hard time capturing a very high DR image; for example a scene with a lot of shadows and bright sky with clouds. This is where it was recommended to use GND filters to preserve highlights in the sky while brightening the image a bit so that there was not as much shadow recovery required. 

Have you compared the SL2 to the SL2-S in this specific case? I do know that the SL2-S has more DR, but I'm trying to wrap my head around how many times would I not have the DR I need with the SL2 when shooting typical landscapes. 

Thanks for any further comments!

Brad

 

I’ve never shot the SL2 or done any side-by-side comparison with the SL2-S so I can’t really speak definitively about the capabilities of the SL2. With that said, looking at the photonstophotos DR chart, it seems to imply that at base ISO50 on the SL2, it should have similar DR as the SL2-S base ISO100. If that’s the case, then they should be comparable. Also, since you’re using an ND filter anyway, perhaps shooting at ISO50 to maximize DR is something worth considering.

[BernardC]

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12 hours ago, kobra said:

@JohnathanLovm - thanks for the suggestion and for sharing a great image! 

I've heard of the variable ND filters... these are not graduated filters, correct? Rather, it seems as you rotate they just get darker through the whole image? Thanks!

That's right. A variable ND consists of two polarizers. If the two polarizers are aligned, they provide the same visual effect as a single polarizer (although the combination is a little darker than a single polarizer). When you rotate one of the polarizers, it compounds the effect the polarizers. Maximum attenuation is achieved when the two polarizers are offset by 90 degrees.

Variable NDs are popular for video. The best ones will have very little colour cast, but the same can't be said of cheaper ones.

[Virob]

13 hours ago, kobra said:

-is there any reason NOT to go with the KASE circular magnetic kit for CPL and ND set?

-are circular ND grad filters going to work well? Or do I need to go with the square holder and 100mm square filters? (trying not to go back to that if I can avoid it). And I do realize this may be a bit restrictive with composition, but hoping someone can jump in and say "yes it works ok if..." or "no, it really doesn't work well in practice"... 

-Can you recommend what type and strength of ND grad filters to get? Hard vs soft? Which stops to get? (ie, do I need several, or is there a 'happy medium' that covers a lot of situations) And, maybe the answer is to do exposure bracketing because that may work well enough (I've tried that for clouds if not too fast moving, but obviously a challenge for ocean scenes) 

I hope the above ramblings aren't too hard to follow  

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

Brad

I don’t see why that Kase system shouldn’t work. Seems very convenient compared to square filters.

You can get away with exposure bracketing and avoid an ND grad, I would do that instead of using a circular ND grad which seems rather limiting. I still find a rectangular ND grad useful. You don’t have to use it with the square filter holder and can just just hold it in front of the lens with your hand. I would start with a 3 stop medium.

[davidmknoble]

@kobra, sorry I’m late to this thread!  I was watching for your start…

I have used filter systems extensively for the last 6 years including Iceland and even more significantly on the coast.  I still use them on the S3 which has the highest dynamic range to date.  They two keys are 1) what type of photograph are you going for and 2) how much post processing do you want to do, and will that post processing work?

Clearly point and shoot without a tripod means square filters are almost impossible to use.  However, tripod work (which it sounds like you have experience in) is very conducive to square filters.

I use both Schneider square filters (I think they stopped making them?) including the sunset filter you saw in the other thread, and Breakthrough Photography filters (made in San Francisco) which have been the most color neutral I have ever used, circular and square.

A couple of thoughts.

• circular filters I call a base layer because they are closest to the lens, with everything else further away.  They are also limited to the thread size, so can get more expensive with different sized lenses.  I try to limit myself on threaded / circular filters.  I do think that sold ND filters tend to work better at high densities (> 0.9 or 3 stops) because stray light does not get in causing magenta infrared in mid tones and shadows which is all but impossible to remove.  I also like the hi-transmission polarizers because I can control the lighting.  I have a few combo polarizer / ND filters, but do not use them as much as I thought.  I think the B+W hi transmission polarizers are great for the value, and also like the Heliopan, but more expensive.  Prefer the brass on aluminium to prevent them from sticking and from bending when tight to remove.
• The breakthrough and Schneider square ND filters have foam that block leaking light if you put them closest to the lens.  I use the Schneider IRND that filters the infrared out, and Breakthrough just does it on all their ND’s.  I have gotten 2 minute exposures without magenta casts.
• The graduated ND’s and sharp edge ND’s work incredibly well to reduce sky dynamic range and allow a better post processing capture.  I typically use 2 stop filters here with an occasional 3-stop.  Again the Breakthrough is the most color neutral I have ever used and unfortunately, the Schneider are thicker so they are not cross compatible.  Normally, reflections on the ground are 1-2 stops darker than the sky, so it gives a more natural look.  It also prevents having to set a graduated mask in post processing, or do so much post processing that the edges do not look natural.  IMHO, anything done at capture time will stand a better chance of looking more natural than post processing.  I have used these grads in 40-55mph winds (carefully) the day after hurricanes and in the rain, although it is the tougher challenge.

If I had to choose three filters, they would be a hi-transmission polarizer (used the least) a 3-stop ND filter (because I tend to shoot as the sun comes up or in the cloudy weather) and a 2-stop graduated ND (although with the ocean a hard stop ND is also good).  A reverse ND is great for cloud fronts coming in and sunrises.

All in all, these filter systems have never let me down, never scratched, never broken and provide a lot less processing time and better choices for choosing color balancing (because they are neutral).  For me, once using them, if I have to shoot something without them I always start editing wishing I had them to use.

I’ll post a few images when I get a chance with filters used.  The sunset filter shot also used a Schneither IRND 1.8 (6 stop) but it was the middle of the day.

[kobra]

Thanks @davidmknoble - I really appreciate your thoughtful response and sharing your experiences on how you optimize the use filters; very helpful! 

Just one question - why a hi-transmission polarizer instead of the regular ones (which I think lose about 1 stop)? Thanks again! 

Brad

[davidmknoble]

10 hours ago, kobra said:

Thanks @davidmknoble - I really appreciate your thoughtful response and sharing your experiences on how you optimize the use filters; very helpful! 

Just one question - why a hi-transmission polarizer instead of the regular ones (which I think lose about 1 stop)? Thanks again! 

Brad

You're welcome!  I prefer letting the max light through on a polarizer. It means I can use it for other uses, handholding. If I want to reduce the light, I would rather do it intentionally. It just keeps the mental math easier.

Also note that really wide angle lenses do not play well with polarizers.  The light is at different angles on a wide and the vignetting patterns are not natural at all...

 

[hansvons]

Back in my film days in filmmaking, I used many filters, as they were necessary when the exposure time was as low as 1/50 or 1/48. They were often stacked in a matte box, e.g. a Wratten 85 plus an ND9 or a pol filter, mostly in 4x5 or 6x6. Often black and white promist filters and other net-emulating filters were on the plate as well, as there was hardly a chance to soften skin in post. Today, I only use a variable ND filter for video and a polariser as screw-on round filters for digital stills photography and video. I try to avoid larger footprints these days. I find NISI variable NDs and polarisers a good choice. There are other good ones, like Tiffen and Format and others I haven't used yet. But I'd never buy cheap.

[kobra]

Ok, I did go ahead and order the KASE Revolution 82mm kit as I referenced in my first post; link here again, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BQ88BL38?tag=lufregex-20 

I really do like the system; very small package, everything is so solid and usability of the magnetic system is so much better than a screw in system or square filters with holder. I have ordered extra rings so that all of my field lenses will have rings permanently installed. A bonus surprise is how well the magnetic lens caps work - I've ordered more of those as they are so superior to the typical lens pinch caps... and the Leica lens caps on the zooms seem easily bumped off. 

I did some further research, and found the video below from Nigel Danson; I like his work and in this video he speaks about the Format Hitech system that I used to use and why he moved to the KASE magnetic system. He demonstrates the use of the system so you can visualize what I was noting as above. 

One comment; Nigel has decided not to use ND grads anymore. Many have commented on this thread with reasons why an ND grad is still useful in the field, so I am still considering that. 

My initial impressions of the system are good, but I welcome any questions or comments to help me make sure - I don't want to buy yet another accessory that fails to live up to its promise. 

Thanks in advance for any further help!

Brad

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by kobra

[wellfleet]

15 hours ago, kobra said:

One comment; Nigel has decided not to use ND grads anymore

 

I also use Kase filters but earlier versions that aren't color coded unfortunately.

I also gave up on carrying ND grads and blend in post, though for extremely long exposures that's not always practical.

Edited April 13, 2023 by wellfleet

[kobra]

1 minute ago, wellfleet said:

 

I also use Kase filters but earlier versions that aren't color coded unfortunately.

I also gave up on carrying ND grads and blend in post, though for extremely long exposures that's not always practical.

@wellfleet Thanks for replying! 

Are you using the earlier magnetic ones (I think called Wolverine)?

I think the reviews are positive for the overall image quality, but I'm curious to make sure of that, and to make sure there aren't any issues with the magnetic operation (don't want to find out that filters fall off or that there are other long term issues). Any long term concerns that you've experienced? 

Thanks again!

Brad

[wellfleet]

Yes, they are called Wolverine. I've had them since 2019 and I like them a lot, so much better than square/rectangular systems.

I'm always a bit nervous when stacking multiple filters but none have fallen off so far. And they are very neutral re: image quality.

Definitely the best system I'ver had, though I may need to explore some nail polishes to color code them!

[Photoworks]

forget grad filter, learn to do it in post. to fave the sky the grad filter often leads into tall trees.

I have a stack or ND filter, most of them have ugly color cast and it can be fixed. 

VarioND filters don't work with wide-angle lenses, so too many times they are useless for landscape. you will get uneven results across the frame.

I found the best filters to be from Breakthrough Photography filters, I get 82mm and reduction rings to fit on the other smaller lenses.

If needed get a simple ND and one ND+PL