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Another conundrum - go long or short ?


Petrichor

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I have a M11 & a Summicron 50mm f2. Honeymoon over but still in love.Then I think I want (need?) something for more reach for travel e.g. Macro 90mm f4. I.e. 1 body + 2 lens. On the other hand …

Trying out a Q2 which I can buy at a reasonable price at the moment. It would give me the 28 Summilux 1.7 with a very usable 35 crop & ok 50mm.

Those 2 setups are totally contradictory and confusing me especially when I read that rangefinders are best used up to 50mm.

What is your advice? M11, Summicron 50 + f4 90 ? Or Q2?

Can’t justify all as I have hit my 70’s and it’s a hobby not a moneymaking venture. Something’s got to give 🫤.

Can’t carry both around the world at my age and stage. Chiropractors are probably more expensive than the hardware solution.

im sure some of you have travelled this path before. What is your story please.


P.S. I consider myself a very average amateur so top end glass is unnecessary.

‘I’m told glass appreciates and fixed lenses depreciate when superseded.

 

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Financially, lenses are always better than digital bodies. This is certainly true if you buy new. It takes a long time before a Leica Q or M will plateau and starts gaining value (like 10 years or more). Lenses go down slower and plateau earlier.

I would buy a nice used 90mm Macro lens in your case. I love it for its compactness and the quality is superb.  If any money is left for a used 28 or 35 mm Summicron, that would be a great addition too. With the 60 MP sensor, your M11 with a 28 mm  mounted will be like having a zoom lens from 28 - 70mm (leaving about 10 MP at 70mm) or with 35mm you can go from 35 to 100mm crops.

All of these solutions will have equal or better IQ compared to the Q. So I see not much use for it other than having a second body with wide options. This only applies if you take both at once, so it is not much use for you. It is far easier to carry 2 extra lenses with you like the 28 and 90 mm. Just make sure you go inside before swapping lenses to avoid dust on the sensor.

If you buy used lenses at the right price point, they can be seen as sort of a saving account. You will get your money back and can enjoy the use of it more than having money in the bank.

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If cropping Q2's 28mm is an acceptable solution for you, it should also be the case for the 50mm mounted to the M11...so, no need to buy a 90mm...unless you want it.

If you are lusting after 28 focal length, getting a M lens is probably the best option, definitely in terms of cost & weight.

 

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The conundrum of covering the focal length spectrum. I'd suggest before committing one way or the other, you give careful consideration to what you either have or intend to shoot most and let that dictate the additional focal length lens/camera. It is nice to have both, but if one sits on the shelf all the time while the other gets used, it can be a waste of money.

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Let me confuse you further :)

It's easier to crop if you need reach then to stitch if you need width. So that argument would speak for the Q2. Getting older and reducing size/weight of your kit also speaks for the Q2.

On the other hand if you really want reach the Q is not in the right direction, cropping to the 90 mm angle is a stretch. So if that's what you really want I'd go for the 90, if you don't need macro the 90/4 isn't the best option I think, I'd rather look for a second hand Elmarit 90/2.8, not too heavy and excellent quality. And after having used that for some time and you want something wider without breaking the bank look at the voigtländer 28 and/or 35 mm options. Lots of choices for excellent qualty, and if you only want Leica lenses the little Elmarit 28/2.8 fits in every bag and you won't notice the added weight since it's so light. B.t.w., if you're not married to Leica lenses the Voigtländer 90/2.8 is also an excellent lens.

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I guess the first thing is to decide how you feel about the Q2. I’ve not used one, but it’s got to be quite a different animal to a Leica M - EVF, autofocus. If you love it, then go with it. 
 

Personally I find 50mm long enough for most things and am usually looking for something a bit wider on my M’s, rather than longer. With 60 mega pixels on the M11 you can presumably crop in a good amount anyway. 
 

I think in your position, as I really enjoy the rangefinder, I’d look at getting a wider lens for the M11 first. But have a look through the rangefinder and see how you feel about the different frame lines. If you wear glasses you may struggle to see the 28mm lines - even the 35mm lines can be tricky to see. Also the 90 mm lines are quite small in the rangefinder window. 
 

As has been said above it’s well worth looking at lenses by other manufacturers - Voigtlander and Zeiss particularly. You could quite easily get a 28 or 35 and a 90 for your M11 for less than the cost of a Leica lens. I do understand why you might want to stick with Leica though. I am currently using Zeiss and Voigtlander lenses and am very happy with the results - but I’m also always drawn to getting a Leica again….

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56 minutes ago, Lelmer said:

If cropping Q2's 28mm is an acceptable solution for you, it should also be the case for the 50mm mounted to the M11...so, no need to buy a 90mm...unless you want it.

If you are lusting after 28 focal length, getting a M lens is probably the best option, definitely in terms of cost & weight.

 

If you need more reach, I suppose cropping the 50mm has been tried already and it seems that was not enough. I would not hesitate cropping the 90mm to 180mm equivalent on the M11. So it really brings extra reach.

50 minutes ago, pegelli said:

Let me confuse you further :)

It's easier to crop if you need reach then to stitch if you need width. So that argument would speak for the Q2. Getting older and reducing size/weight of your kit also speaks for the Q2.

On the other hand if you really want reach the Q is not in the right direction, cropping to the 90 mm angle is a stretch. So if that's what you really want I'd go for the 90, if you don't need macro the 90/4 isn't the best option I think, I'd rather look for a second hand Elmarit 90/2.8, not too heavy and excellent quality. And after having used that for some time and you want something wider without breaking the bank look at the voigtländer 28 and/or 35 mm options. Lots of choices for excellent qualty, and if you only want Leica lenses the little Elmarit 28/2.8 fits in every bag and you won't notice the added weight since it's so light. B.t.w., if you're not married to Leica lenses the Voigtländer 90/2.8 is also an excellent lens.

I was just referring to it because the OP asked for it. If you are in doubt about the focal length, I would suggest trying the Elmar 90C F4 or the thin Elmarit 2.8 as Pegelli suggests. They are excellent value for money and very compact and light too. They would leave a lot of budget for a compact 28mm or 35mm as well. There are lots of choices from Elmarit to Summilux ASPH under 300g. Both 90 and wide would only add about 250g each to your bag so you would not notice them. The wides have the added benefit that the M11 would fit in a coat pocket even with the lens mounted.

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With your M11 you can easily view all those fields of view by simply toggling the frame preview lever. Much cheaper than buying lenses 😀
As for the investment question, you buy a lens, use it. There is usually no need to sell, and if you do so  you will get a used lens price, never higher than what you paid originally. Unless you keep it for 50 plus years. 
Only spending time photographing and wishing that you had a wider or longer lens will give you a real sense of the need/want for that other lens. 
Finally, if you do not print your images, your purchase is a total waste of money. Just sell the camera and lens and carry an iPhone. 

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I faced the same decision, Q2 or M (10R in my case).  I found a late 28/35/50mm MATE which gives me those focal lengths without the crop -loss of pixels.                                         The f4.0 aperture does not bother me, most of my shots are travel pix so I was always stopping down faster lenses to get foreground to background sharpness.  If I  required a faster lens, one of the Voigtlander f1.5 Noktons, 35 or 50mm, small enough to carry in a pocket would work, but so far I haven't found the need. A 21mm f3.5 Voigtlander Color Skopar is the only addition so far, the f3.5-4 aperture hasn't limited me yet either, even for dimly-lit interior shots in cramped places.

Edited by Rick in CO
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I had itch for a longer lens.  I picked up  used macro 90 elmar-m f/4.  Being collapsible it carries really easily.  Makes a nice complement to my normal 28 or 35 that always goes along.

I see older collapsable 90 elmars for pretty cheap money (€500) used in the local stores also.  Might make for a economical experiment that you can bail on if it doesn't suit you.

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The Ms have always been better at handling shorter focal length lenses than longer, so if you have an M11 I would see no point in buying a Q2 rather than a wider M lens.

If you also want a longer M lens then you could easily buy an 90/4 Elmar-C for very little money to see how you get on (you will lose very little on such a lens and could consider anything you lose as 'rental').

Its very easy to spend on Leicas but you don't actually need to do so, especialy if you want to try thing to see what suits you.

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5 hours ago, Petrichor said:

I have a M11 & a Summicron 50mm f2. Honeymoon over but still in love.Then I think I want (need?) something for more reach for travel e.g. Macro 90mm f4. I.e. 1 body + 2 lens. On the other hand …

Trying out a Q2 which I can buy at a reasonable price at the moment. It would give me the 28 Summilux 1.7 with a very usable 35 crop & ok 50mm.

Those 2 setups are totally contradictory and confusing me especially when I read that rangefinders are best used up to 50mm.

What is your advice? M11, Summicron 50 + f4 90 ? Or Q2?

Can’t justify all as I have hit my 70’s and it’s a hobby not a moneymaking venture. Something’s got to give 🫤.

Can’t carry both around the world at my age and stage. Chiropractors are probably more expensive than the hardware solution.

im sure some of you have travelled this path before. What is your story please.


P.S. I consider myself a very average amateur so top end glass is unnecessary.

‘I’m told glass appreciates and fixed lenses depreciate when superseded.

 

From what you write, I’d get a Q2 and be done with it. But 28 is my fav FOV.

I use the M when I want “top end glass” or some character lens, but I find it best with 35 and 50mm. I can’t see the 28 mm framelines at all and I find it *really* hard to focus telephoto lenses like the 90/2.8 or 90/4.

Recently when I travel I take the Q2 and a Ricoh GRiiix, which I like more than the Q2 cropped. I find it hard to beat that combo for a casual but dedicated amateur.

Edited by gotium
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5 hours ago, Petrichor said:

I have a M11 & a Summicron 50mm f2. Honeymoon over but still in love.Then I think I want (need?) something for more reach for travel e.g. Macro 90mm f4. I.e. 1 body + 2 lens. On the other hand …

Trying out a Q2 which I can buy at a reasonable price at the moment. It would give me the 28 Summilux 1.7 with a very usable 35 crop & ok 50mm.

Those 2 setups are totally contradictory and confusing me especially when I read that rangefinders are best used up to 50mm.

What is your advice? M11, Summicron 50 + f4 90 ? Or Q2?

Can’t justify all as I have hit my 70’s and it’s a hobby not a moneymaking venture. Something’s got to give 🫤.

Can’t carry both around the world at my age and stage. Chiropractors are probably more expensive than the hardware solution.

im sure some of you have travelled this path before. What is your story please.


P.S. I consider myself a very average amateur so top end glass is unnecessary.

‘I’m told glass appreciates and fixed lenses depreciate when superseded.

 

My advice is yes you can carry both the Q2 and M11. They'll fit nicely with your cell phone in a Billingham-Leica bag or ThinkTank 30i. The Q is very lightweight, offers close focus, and will perfectly compliment your M11 with your 50 or (compact) 75mm lens like a 2.4-2.5 Summarit or Voigtlander.  You'll have a fantastic system.

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Thank you for the valuable insights. I can only imagine most of us / you have wrestled with similar conundrums unless you buy to enable specific purposes/projects.

I came to Leica from Fuji and Nikon because it was a ‘bucket list thing’ and also wanted to ditch overstock years of GAS motivated purchases.

I want simplicity and function and use the gear, not have sleepless nights cogitating over first world ‘problems’.

I think I’m back to one camera M11, 28 / 50 / and 75 or 90 - at least for the next few hours ?

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Given the positive advice I made a rudimentary experiment. No science just comparison to my eye.

All shots in raw. On tripod to replicate exact shooting position.

Cron 50mm @ 5.6 x 3 focal distances 2, 5 and 50 metres.

Replicated those distances with Q2 same settings and 50 crop.

Surprised but pleased. I found my Cron seemed to be clearer (and also so on pixel peep).

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From my experience, the widest focal length to use comfortably on a 0.72x viewfinder should be 35mm, while on a 0.58x it should be 28mm. I am not wearing glasses but I still have difficulty seeing the 28mm framelines on a 0.72x window unless I push my eye to the viewfinder very close. Unfortunately the digital M-bodies don’t offer variations in viewfinder magnification. I suggest you take your M11+50mm out for a few more walks, and if you have chances, fiddle with the frameline preview lever to see if you need the wider/longer focal length.

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I just want to put in another mention for the 90mm Elmar Macro. I've found it to be simply superb as a general purpose lens! It takes me in a different direction. 

I'll admit to being off the center of the bell curve in this: I like the 90mm in a lot of settings where most folks like a 50 or a 35. I've got nothing against the 50 or the 35, and I use them frequently, but I like where following the 90 leads me. 

Landscape compositions, certainly, but even Street. The 90 requires me to exercise selectivity in framing. I often get better results by not having more elements in the frame, to such an extent it has influenced the way I see and build an image. Sure, many folks seem to prefer a wide lens because it shows more, you can include more, etc. But for me, that's exactly the problem; I get stronger results by selecting and isolating elements in as strong a way visually as possible. 

So for general, around-the-house or around-the-family I'll usually have the 50 or the 35 on for starters. 

But for walking around, in Landscape, or Street, or Urban Landscape, I find the 90 is a very natural and comfortable choice. 

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On 3/25/2023 at 4:17 AM, Petrichor said:

I have a M11 & a Summicron 50mm f2. Honeymoon over but still in love.Then I think I want (need?) something for more reach for travel e.g. Macro 90mm f4. I.e. 1 body + 2 lens. On the other hand …

Trying out a Q2 which I can buy at a reasonable price at the moment. It would give me the 28 Summilux 1.7 with a very usable 35 crop & ok 50mm.

Those 2 setups are totally contradictory and confusing me especially when I read that rangefinders are best used up to 50mm.

What is your advice? M11, Summicron 50 + f4 90 ? Or Q2?

Can’t justify all as I have hit my 70’s and it’s a hobby not a moneymaking venture. Something’s got to give 🫤.

Can’t carry both around the world at my age and stage. Chiropractors are probably more expensive than the hardware solution.

im sure some of you have travelled this path before. What is your story please.


P.S. I consider myself a very average amateur so top end glass is unnecessary.

‘I’m told glass appreciates and fixed lenses depreciate when superseded.

 

What type of images do you take? For low risk/low budget experimentation, I would consider 1/ renting a lens, 2/ playing with one in your local Leica store (if one is nearby), 3/ buying used, 4/ buying Voigtlander. The Q2 is not a 'no regrets' move, there will be inevitably a successor in the not too distant future, and then resale value would take a hit ...

90mm on rangefinder is OK, having said that, I find myself using the EVF for everything besides 35mm and 50mm (I am wearing glasses ...)

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