M246M or M10 (not Monochrome)

[MacDougall]

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Hi all, new guy here. I had Rs and Ms in the film days of the 80s and 90s but sold it all, tearfully, for child support…

I’m a retired pro and to shoot street things for myself and imminent fame. 🤣 I shoot b&w 95% of the time, with a large Canon body/Zeiss glass closet if I need. Recently got a Q and I love it; should’ve got a Q2M but this was a test. 

On to Ms. I’d rather buy air fare than an M11 or M10M. My question is how does a M246M compare to  straight M10, later converting or shooting monochrome in-body? (I realize the color mgmt is still there.) Would the increase in resolution help offset the sharpness gains in a M sensor of older tech? They’re about the same cost on the 2nd hand mkt.
 

thanks for any opinions. 

[Photomek]

A month ago I have tested an M246 for one day and was blown away from the tones and details coming from the M262. After opening up the RAW file in Capture One I was amazed and wondered what to adjust in this RAW file. For me it was perfect how it was. But then the other day the camera broke (rangefinder roller(?) didn't work anymore) and I had to give the camera back to my dealer unfortunately.

I had the opportunity to wait for the repaired M246 and was allowed to test the M10 in the meantime. The M10 is very different camera, much better sharpness than the M262, very much improved colors, better viewfinder and noticeable smaller body. Immediately I fell in love with the new body. The next weeks I had a hard time to decide which way I wanted to go. Finally I have decided to keep the M10 and I am very happy with it.

But the funny thing is, that I am still thinking about the M246. I shoot almost exclusively black and white and wanted to eliminate another decision that I have to make after taking the picture. And I wonder, if the M246 would be that much different from a converted M10 file. The obvious advantage of the M246 is the resolution which results in a much more detailed picture than from the M10. And shooting with ISO 12500 was a breeze. Still so much detail and very fine grain. The M10 is not bad either but this is no comparison. Are the tones that much different? I really don't know. And yes, the battery life of the M246 was perfect by the way. 

So my dream camera is the M10 monochrome for sure, but it's beyond my budget.

Sample 1: M246 with Summicron 2/35 ASPH II at ISO3200

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Sample 2: M246 with Summicron 2/35 ASPH II at ISO12500

Edited March 25, 2023 by Photomek

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[jimmielx]

Not sure if it helps answer your question or not, but here is a link to a very comprehensive comparison on Red Dot Forum. 
 

It is mostly concerned with ISO performance though. 
 

I have recently got an M246 to complement my M9P and M2. I love the 246. Love its battery life. But I do wish it was a bit less bulky. The M240 generation is as physically large as the digital Ms have become. From the M10 on they have become smaller - the same dimensions as an M6TTL I believe. 

 

Tricky choice, but for me I was most interested in getting a significant high ISO improvement and the M246 does that, even over the colour M10s. 
 

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/

[pegelli]

@MacDougall, I started with a IIIf and later converted to M2 and and an R3. I mainly shot B&W film and occasionally colour slides. Then detoured to Olympus OM. Went digital with Minolta and later Sony. The R3 was stolen but I still have and use the M2.

Some time ago I started lusting for a digital rangefinder and decided after long looking/comparing and studying my wallet that a M246 was the best option for me to get back into such a system. It's expensive but didn't break the bank like an M10M, 24 MP is more than I need because I don't print very large and 24 MP monochrom is already more detailed then a bayer colour sensor of 24 MP which is later converted to B&W. My impression (no rigorous testing) is that the 24 MP B&W sensor is a bit more detailed than a 42 MP colour sensor converted to B&W, but the difference is so small that I might be wrong but in the end it really doesn't matter in practice (for me). In most cases sharpness and resolution is overrated  and usually do not make or break a photo.

The big advantage of a B&W sensor is that you gain a stop or more in noise performance because you don't lose light through the little RGGB colour filters in front of the pixels but on the other hand the big advantage of the colour sensor is that you have all the colour information available to balance the B&W tones selectively after the fact. So in my mind "better" is depending on how and what you shoot and how you want to process your images, do you like to tinker with colour filters when taking the photo or do you prefer the flexibility after the fact.

In summary, I wouldn't worry too much about resolution or noise differences between a M246 and the M10, but think about how you want to shoot, pure B&W "old school" using colour filters as needed or the more modern approach of creating the look you want after the fact by using the colour information available.

[pgh]

I'd go with the M10 (provided it's impossible to save a little longer for an M10-R - which would be my first choice) with certain caveats - 

- You need, or consider it highly valuable for a tool to force you to stay b/w

- You consistently print larger than A3 (ish, more like 13x19) AND you shoot a lot of low light

- You consistently print larger than A1 (ish) regardless 

- You're really bothered by grain/noise in b/w images.

I personally love the M10 files for b/w conversions. The body shape is also highly preferable to me. Small when measured but nonetheless a selling point for me. The 262 will answer those issues I listed above but in a less significant way than the M10M - in some cases it really might be sort of a squint test scenario and at that point I think it's worth asking if that's really worth it. I try to consider if my picture will have a different impact to the general viewer, for example.

That said, I recently ordered a used M10M (my first M purchase since the M10). After waffling for over a year and running into more than a few situations where I wish I'd had it I pulled the trigger. My reasoning - I often print A1 or larger and am now doing work that involves a lot more low light than I used to do. In short - it will let me make more detailed images suitable for medium to large prints in a wider array of situations, or another way of putting it - I can handhold a lot more stuff and thus can make pics that would have been blurry before - and a viewer notices when something is blurry versus non. It's not going to be IBIS level handholding gains but for an M I will take what I can get. 

It's not because I think the b/w white will be better in general - at least in a noticeable way - especially in any photos printed under 13x19 that only require 800 ISO or lower (ish). I'm also not looking forward to losing the channels which offer a lot of monochrom post potential. 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by pgh

[Jeff S]

For me, the primary reason for using a Monochrom (I own the MM and M10M) is to provide a b&w mindset, i.e., no distractions looking for or noticing potential color pics.  95% is entirely different than 100% in my experience.  The trade off is not being able to take advantage of using color channels in PP, instead relying on far less flexible colored lens filters. Otherwise, I don’t print big enough, or at high enough ISO, to make choices based on resolution/ISO differences. Others have different use cases.

In this specific discussion, the differences between the M240 and M10 body platforms (VF differences, size, build tolerances, etc) would also warrant consideration if I were making this decision.

Jeff

 

 

[sometimesmaybe]

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in terms of technical performance, i think the differences have been well covered above.

in terms of psychology, i just add when i shoot my m246, im fully committed and there is no going back. just a singular mindset 

[pgh]

OP - FWIW, I find the b/w jpg option on the M10 plenty to put me in the bw mindset and then to keep it there - shoot bw jpg and have your bw setting of choice applied to DNG on import and your whole workflow is mono. I don't think that alone is worth it - I only the think mono - esp previous generation - could be worth it worth it when it comes to image/print quality issues. Or at least - that's the only practical consideration I can find. 

[Jeff S]

JPEGS would put me in a dismal mindset: poor editing flexibility; underwhelming print quality; and lack of long term software compatibility. And for me, as long as the camera has a RAW/DNG color option, it’s substantively different than a monochrome based camera.  Different strokes…

Jeff

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Jeff S

[MacDougall]

Thanks guys, for all the great insights.

I'm picking up a minty M246M tomorrow in Hong Kong for a great great price. I really would prefer the M10M but this gets me in the door before I drop bigger bucks, and a bigger budget to get some better glass. Its a step. 

[sometimesmaybe]

1 hour ago, MacDougall said:

I'm picking up a minty M246M tomorrow in Hong Kong for a great great price

i doubt you'll regret your decision. i picked up my m246 around 7 months ago as my entry point into the world of leica. i was planning to use it as my 'B' camera to the GFX. anyway, im now thinking about replacing my GFX and going all in on leica 💸🤦‍♂️

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[pgh]

11 hours ago, Jeff S said:

JPEGS would put me in a dismal mindset: poor editing flexibility; underwhelming print quality; and lack of long term software compatibility. And for me, as long as the camera has a RAW/DNG color option, it’s substantively different than a monochrome based camera.  Different strokes…

Jeff

 

Yea - you shoot JPG + DNG. The jpg is just for the back of the camera review - hopefully that was clear with the dng in your favorite mono setting on import. I've had my M10 set like this for about 2 years and essentially haven't had a color camera for just as long in that sense, fwiw. 

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, pgh said:

Yea - you shoot JPG + DNG. The jpg is just for the back of the camera review - hopefully that was clear with the dng in your favorite mono setting on import. I've had my M10 set like this for about 2 years and essentially haven't had a color camera for just as long in that sense, fwiw. 

Still doesn’t work for me (I also have an M10-R, which never comes along with the Monochrom.) A color camera ruins the b&w mindset for me, as the color option remains.  The whole point with a Monochrom for me is the discipline derived from knowing that color is not an option. I don’t bother with back screen reviews, and seeing a b&w preview is not the point.  The scene I’m viewing is in color; I have no problem visualizing in b&w, having shot b&w film starting in 1974.  The idea is not being tempted with color distractions in the real world, not on my screen, the same as b&w film days.  It’s a mindset, not a camera preview. Plus I have no desire to fill my card and computer with a bunch of wasted imported JPEGS, even if meant for deletion. As always, YMMV.

Jeff

Edited March 26, 2023 by Jeff S

[DadDadDaddyo]

The M246 is a wonderful camera, perfectly capable of blowing you away now and for years to come. Resolution? 24 gorgeous megapixels. When the M246 was my primary Monochrom I regularly printed 16x20 images on 17 inch paper. Beautiful prints!

What the M10M got me was more room to maneuver in framing and cropping. What I can say about the results is that they do not put the M246 to shame. What stands out is how the M246 images stand up next to all comparisons. 

So it really is a choice of resolutions. If you can accomplish what you want in 24 megapixels then the M246 is an outstanding choice! At its current prices the M246 is a bargain!

[Jeff S]

Of course the lack of Bayer array yields a resolution effectively closer to 32-36MP than 24MP. Not the main reason I choose to use a Monochrom vs a color based M, but serves well for those needing to print large and/or crop significantly.

Jeff

Edited March 26, 2023 by Jeff S

[pgh]

5 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Still doesn’t work for me (I also have an M10-R, which never comes along with the Monochrom.) A color camera ruins the b&w mindset for me, as the color option remains.  The whole point with a Monochrom for me is the discipline derived from knowing that color is not an option. I don’t bother with back screen reviews, and seeing a b&w preview is not the point.  The scene I’m viewing is in color; I have no problem visualizing in b&w, having shot b&w film starting in 1974.  The idea is not being tempted with color distractions in the real world, not on my screen, the same as b&w film days.  It’s a mindset, not a camera preview. Plus I have no desire to fill my card and computer with a bunch of wasted imported JPEGS, even if meant for deletion. As always, YMMV.

Jeff

I totally get it - I was just sharing a way that does work for me, (mindset included) - offering that as an option and clarifying that I didn't mean shoot JPG to actually use them. For me the point of the monochrom is really just the higher acuity - which is notable - because the rest is sort of just a mental game (if one makes it that). You also give up color channels, which is for me a bit of a bummer because they have such good use in monochrom processing.  

[sometimesmaybe]

the other thing i should say is that... i shoot to edit.

having a colour camera gives me too much temptation in post, and i get caught in no man's land. i just don't have the discipline 😬

a lot of hyperbole i know, but with a monochrom, the temptation of colour is gone. i just focus on light, composition and nailing focus

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by sometimesmaybe
typos...

[Damien Maillet]

On 3/26/2023 at 6:27 AM, sometimesmaybe said:

i doubt you'll regret your decision. i picked up my m246 around 7 months ago as my entry point into the world of leica. i was planning to use it as my 'B' camera to the GFX. anyway, im now thinking about replacing my GFX and going all in on leica 💸🤦‍♂️

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What a great portrait you did here ! all in subtlety, congratulation !

[Grimmlord Blakk]

I have both the M246 and M-10. If I HAD to choose I would 100% take the M246. I love the way it renders my Elmarit-M 28mm/2.8, silver Summicron 50mm/f2 v.5 and my Summicron 90mm/f2 apo asph. Don’t get me wrong, they also render lovely on the M-10, but as I’m a mostly B&W shooter, the M246 all the way, such a beautiful camera, love love it.

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[Crowmagnon]

Yep m246 is sometimes misunderstood camera. Yes m9m has its own thing going for it. But m246 usability is undeniable. Pair it with 50 summarit 2.5's fast focus throw, u get a "street killer". People gonna complain about blowing out highlights but the more reps u put on this tool u will understand the sensor better. I used to shoot everyday day every thing, expose it to various conditions and lighting scenarios, torture Test it lol.

This camera loves over cast days, bad weather , thunder,Strom,  and rain. This is not a summer or  spring camera( unles u have nd filter). It's a vampire creature of the night. Like batman. Switching to red frame line u feel like terminator.

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Edited May 11, 2023 by Crowmagnon