NicholasT Posted March 18, 2023 Share #341 Posted March 18, 2023 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) On 3/14/2023 at 6:06 PM, kobra said: Thanks for weighing in on this and sharing your process. I appreciate it greatly when folks do that. Earlier you mentioned the 90-280 and that you've owned it twice; any comments on your experience using that against the Sigma 100-400? I do hope this is not too OT. Thanks! Brad @Kobra sorry for the delay in responding. Just returned from a trip and had some trouble locating your earlier post. Your post is clearly not OT as we seem to have migrated to a generic discussion about MTFs Regarding my ownership of two copies of the 90-280. I sold it the first time because I found it to be too big and heavy considering its limited reach. Later I was reminded of its sheer quality while owning the Sigma 100-400, so I sold the Sigma and purchased the 90-280 (again). Once I owned the lens I took it on several longer hikes mostly for landscape photography and decided that the quality was clearly there but lugging the lens any distance was a chore. The fact that I purchased the lens twice would suggest that I’m either a slow learner or the 90-280 is such a good lens that it easily lends itself to such a dilemma. Also should mention that the issue of reach was a consideration in my decision to sell. Since I did not own the Sigma 100-400 and 90-280 at the same time, I was not able to do side-by-side tests. That said, I compared the photos taken with each lens and concluded (no surprise) that for certain shots in particular the 90-280 is in a class of its own. The way the lens renders wide open is very special. The only long lens which I can compare it to in terms of rendering is the Nikon 400mm F2.8 which I consider the best long lens I’ve ever owned. As I mentioned in a prior post I believe that there is far too little mention of “use cases” when discussing the merits of various lenses. I don’t know enough about your style of photography or shooting priorities, but you did mention that you shoot desert racing and sporting events. Desert racing would appear to be a use case that would strongly favor either the Leica 100-400 or 90-280. Even if we assume that the only difference between the Sigma and Leica 100-400 is in the build quality, shooting in desert conditions should tip the scales in favor of the Leica lens. I seriously doubt the durability of the Sigma would hold out in the long run, not to mention dust incursion, etc. Before moving on and to avoid any misunderstanding I'd like to clarify that I have absolutely nothing against Sigma, Panasonic, or other lens manufacturers. They make fine optics particularly when price points are taken into account. In fact, until I receive the Leica 100-400 which is on order, my current go-to long lens is the Panasonic Lumix 70-300 F 4.5 to 5.6. Were it not for the added reach, Leica build quality, and TC I probably would just stick with Panasonic Lumix 70-300. I find the performance and build quality of the Lumix to be well above average, its light (easy to carry and handhold) and in general represents great value for the money. Turning back to the subject at hand, I thought I’d share a few photos taken with 90-280, Sigma 100-400 and Nikon 400 F2.8 on the off chance that they might provide further context and help with your decision. Photo #1 Taken with Leica 90-280. This photo was taken from quite a distance (due to access reasons). I believe this photo could have been taken with almost any of the above-mentioned lens with similar results. Photo #2 Taken with Leica 90-280. The subject and composition of this photo aren’t sufficiently interesting to be included in my portfolio. It's just a test shot with SL 90-280. I offer it up because I find that the subtle quality of the falloff, subject isolation, etc is outstanding and a good example of what is possible with this lens. I doubt that either the Sigma or the Leica 100-400 could produce an equivalent result. Photo #3 Taken with Sigma 100-400. The Sigma rendered the photo well in that I was pleased with the colors, rendering etc. If all my photography consisted of shots like this I wouldn’t need a different lens. Photo #4 Taken with Nikon 400 F2.8 Photo #5 Taken with Nikon 400 F2.8. Shutter speed and wing blur were intentional. Capturing this photo took 3 hour drive and 3 hours at the shooting location (twice) as I had to locate the owl, study its flight patterns, position myself in the best location, and wait patiently. Photo #6 Taken with Nikon 400 F2.8 I’m sharing the Nikon 400mm F 2.8 shots because I believe that the Leica 90-280 can produce equivalent results but the reject rate on #4 and #5 would be much higher due to Leica's more limited autofocus performance. In closing, if the size and weight of the SL 90-280 is not a problem for you and you can achieve the desired results with modest cropping, you might want to take a serious look at a well-preserved copy of the SL 90-280. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 18, 2023 by NicholasT 11 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/371396-sl-100-400-f56-6-rebrand-but-not-the-same-lens/?do=findComment&comment=4728704'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 18, 2023 Posted March 18, 2023 Hi NicholasT, Take a look here SL 100-400 f/5.6-6 Rebrand But Not the Same Lens. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
NicholasT Posted March 18, 2023 Share #342 Posted March 18, 2023 Images #4, #5 & #6 referenced in prior post Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 16 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/371396-sl-100-400-f56-6-rebrand-but-not-the-same-lens/?do=findComment&comment=4728708'>More sharing options...
kobra Posted March 18, 2023 Share #343 Posted March 18, 2023 24 minutes ago, NicholasT said: @Kobra sorry for the delay in responding. Just returned from a trip and had some trouble locating your earlier post. Your post is clearly not OT as we seem to have migrated to a generic discussion about MTFs Regarding my ownership of two copies of the 90-280. I sold it the first time because I found it to be too big and heavy considering its limited reach. Later I was reminded of its sheer quality while owning the Sigma 100-400, so I sold the Sigma and purchased the 90-280 (again). Once I owned the lens I took it on several longer hikes mostly for landscape photography and decided that the quality was clearly there but lugging the lens any distance was a chore. The fact that I purchased the lens twice would suggest that I’m either a slow learner or the 90-280 is such a good lens that it easily lends itself to such a dilemma. Also should mention that the issue of reach was a consideration in my decision to sell. Since I did not own the Sigma 100-400 and 90-280 at the same time, I was not able to do side-by-side tests. That said, I compared the photos taken with each lens and concluded (no surprise) that for certain shots in particular the 90-280 is in a class of its own. The way the lens renders wide open is very special. The only long lens which I can compare it to in terms of rendering is the Nikon 400mm F2.8 which I consider the best long lens I’ve ever owned. As I mentioned in a prior post I believe that there is far too little mention of “use cases” when discussing the merits of various lenses. I don’t know enough about your style of photography or shooting priorities, but you did mention that you shoot desert racing and sporting events. Desert racing would appear to be a use case that would strongly favor either the Leica 100-400 or 90-280. Even if we assume that the only difference between the Sigma and Leica 100-400 is in the build quality, shooting in desert conditions should tip the scales in favor of the Leica lens. I seriously doubt the durability of the Sigma would hold out in the long run, not to mention dust incursion, etc. Before moving on and to avoid any misunderstanding I'd like to clarify that I have absolutely nothing against Sigma, Panasonic, or other lens manufacturers. They make fine optics particularly when price points are taken into account. In fact, until I receive the Leica 100-400 which is on order, my current go-to long lens is the Panasonic Lumix 70-300 F 4.5 to 5.6. Were it not for the added reach, Leica build quality, and TC I probably would just stick with Panasonic Lumix 70-300. I find the performance and build quality of the Lumix to be well above average, its light (easy to carry and handhold) and in general represents great value for the money. Turning back to the subject at hand, I thought I’d share a few photos taken with 90-280, Sigma 100-400 and Nikon 400 F2.8 on the off chance that they might provide further context and help with your decision. Photo #1 Taken with Leica 90-280. This photo was taken from quite a distance (due to access reasons). I believe this photo could have been taken with almost any of the above-mentioned lens with similar results. Photo #2 Taken with Leica 90-280. The subject and composition of this photo aren’t sufficiently interesting to be included in my portfolio. It's just a test shot with SL 90-280. I offer it up because I find that the subtle quality of the falloff, subject isolation, etc is outstanding and a good example of what is possible with this lens. I doubt that either the Sigma or the Leica 100-400 could produce an equivalent result. Photo #3 Taken with Sigma 100-400. The Sigma rendered the photo well in that I was pleased with the colors, rendering etc. If all my photography consisted of shots like this I wouldn’t need a different lens. Photo #4 Taken with Nikon 400 F2.8 Photo #5 Taken with Nikon 400 F2.8. Shutter speed and wing blur were intentional. Capturing this photo took 3 hour drive and 3 hours at the shooting location (twice) as I had to locate the owl, study its flight patterns, position myself in the best location, and wait patiently. Photo #6 Taken with Nikon 400 F2.8 I’m sharing the Nikon 400mm F 2.8 shots because I believe that the Leica 90-280 can produce equivalent results but the reject rate on #4 and #5 would be much higher due to Leica's more limited autofocus performance. In closing, if the size and weight of the SL 90-280 is not a problem for you and you can achieve the desired results with modest cropping, you might want to take a serious look at a well-preserved copy of the SL 90-280. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Thanks Nicolas, very helpful! I very much appreciate 'real world' examples, and you have delivered a wonderful set. Always learning, I aspire to achieve the results that you have displayed. This has been a very helpful thread for me. Some observations so far: -Some early reviewers suggest noticeably better IQ with the new Leica 100-400 vs the Sigma 100-400, while others suggest it they are very similar. According to the published specs and MTFs, likely the differences in IQ will be small. -the Leica build quality is superior - no surprise as it is also the case when comparing the Leica 24-70 vs the Sigma 24-70. This can absolutely matter; whether it's that the superior construction will improve lens alignment and centering, overall lifespan, weather protection, etc. Whether it matters to each person and is worth the extra price is an individual decision; and like all individual decisions we will naturally defend our choice, but it doesn't make our choice the right one for others. -the 90-280 APO is clearly the winner when ultimate IQ is needed. Money aside, the extra size and weight are definitely a consideration. Where does that leave me? I switched from the Fuji X system to the SL system to 'step up' my photographic results. Of course, a big part of that is my abilities and I know I am weak in PP; others can massage RAFs on the same APS-C system I was using and impress me. But, even after a few weeks, I know that the SL2 with Leica lenses are giving me superior results than I had before. Am I 'in for a penny, in for a pound' and should just spend the money to buy the best Leica lenses? I'm leaning towards that, and the 90-280 is gaining on me. I actually rented a 90-280 for a week and took it to a Nascar event and a fun day at Old Tucson movie studios. I will start a new thread and post some images and my further thoughts on the lens. It has to go back now, and I am absolutely in love with the images... however, it is a beast so I am still very interested to see further results on the Leica 100-400 as it may be the 'goldilocks' of the 3. I hope my ramblings about how I am processing the choices are helpful to anyone else on the same journey. Brad 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virob Posted March 19, 2023 Share #344 Posted March 19, 2023 4 hours ago, NicholasT said: Before moving on and to avoid any misunderstanding I'd like to clarify that I have absolutely nothing against Sigma, Panasonic, or other lens manufacturers. They make fine optics particularly when price points are taken into account. In fact, until I receive the Leica 100-400 which is on order, my current go-to long lens is the Panasonic Lumix 70-300 F 4.5 to 5.6. Were it not for the added reach, Leica build quality, and TC I probably would just stick with Panasonic Lumix 70-300. I find the performance and build quality of the Lumix to be well above average, its light (easy to carry and handhold) and in general represents great value for the money. The Panasonic 70-300, doesn’t seem to get much love around here. It is an excellent lens for landscapes, travel and hiking. It is about half the weight and cost of the Leica 100-400 and can focus down to 1/2 life size. If I’m serious about critters, I’ll take the 150-600 Sigma, otherwise the 70-300 is a more practical. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
huwm Posted March 19, 2023 Share #345 Posted March 19, 2023 Yes, I love my 70-300 too Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn30 Posted March 20, 2023 Share #346 Posted March 20, 2023 I got my copy of the Leica VE SL 100-400mm on Saturday and all I can say is that I’m disappointed. It misses focus randomly and it’s not very sharp when it hits focus. The problem could be my SL2, but the problem has only popped up on 2 lens’s ever, the Sigma 100-400, and Leica 100-400 When it nails focus, my copy of the Leica 100-400 isn’t as sharp as the Sigma 150-600 at the same focal length, shutter speed etc. it’s no where near as sharp as the Panasonic 70-300. Again I’ve had no missed focus problems with any other OIS zoom lens besides the two mentioned above. I’ll post a few examples pics 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted March 20, 2023 Share #347 Posted March 20, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 19 minutes ago, Shawn30 said: I got my copy of the Leica VE SL 100-400mm on Saturday and all I can say is that I’m disappointed. It misses focus randomly and it’s not very sharp when it hits focus. The problem could be my SL2, but the problem has only popped up on 2 lens’s ever, the Sigma 100-400, and Leica 100-400 Are you using the the latest firmware (v5.1)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn30 Posted March 20, 2023 Share #348 Posted March 20, 2023 3 hours ago, BernardC said: Are you using the the latest firmware (v5.1)? Yes, my SL2 is on the current release. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem331 Posted March 20, 2023 Share #349 Posted March 20, 2023 58 minutes ago, Shawn30 said: Yes, my SL2 is on the current release. I wonder if you are experiencing the same problem as Gordon noticed in post 246 of this thread. I was thinking of buying this lens but I am having second thoughts if the quality is hit and miss. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted March 20, 2023 Share #350 Posted March 20, 2023 5 hours ago, Shawn30 said: I got my copy of the Leica VE SL 100-400mm on Saturday and all I can say is that I’m disappointed. It misses focus randomly and it’s not very sharp when it hits focus. The problem could be my SL2, but the problem has only popped up on 2 lens’s ever, the Sigma 100-400, and Leica 100-400 When it nails focus, my copy of the Leica 100-400 isn’t as sharp as the Sigma 150-600 at the same focal length, shutter speed etc. it’s no where near as sharp as the Panasonic 70-300. Again I’ve had no missed focus problems with any other OIS zoom lens besides the two mentioned above. I’ll post a few examples pics Mine is the opposite, after my lens exchange. My current 100-400 is noticeably sharper than my 150-600. I did have to exchange the 100-400 to get it that way. I’d be going back to your dealer and trying another one. Gordon 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn30 Posted March 20, 2023 Share #351 Posted March 20, 2023 5 hours ago, Shawn30 said: I got my copy of the Leica VE SL 100-400mm on Saturday and all I can say is that I’m disappointed. It misses focus randomly and it’s not very sharp when it hits focus. The problem could be my SL2, but the problem has only popped up on 2 lens’s ever, the Sigma 100-400, and Leica 100-400 When it nails focus, my copy of the Leica 100-400 isn’t as sharp as the Sigma 150-600 at the same focal length, shutter speed etc. it’s no where near as sharp as the Panasonic 70-300. Again I’ve had no missed focus problems with any other OIS zoom lens besides the two mentioned above. I’ll post a few examples pics If I could delete the above post I would. Turns out the focusing issue was an ID10T error. After updating the SL2 firmware I hadn’t put any of my normal settings back in. I’m not sure which setting fixed it, but I haven’t had a blurry photo since. A bit of a knee jerk reaction on my part. Also after adding contrast to the Leica I feel like it’s about the same as the 150-600. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn30 Posted March 20, 2023 Share #352 Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) Sigma 150-600 jpeg out of camera, no edits @400mm, 1/1600, ISO 500, f6.0 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 20, 2023 by Shawn30 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/371396-sl-100-400-f56-6-rebrand-but-not-the-same-lens/?do=findComment&comment=4731337'>More sharing options...
Shawn30 Posted March 20, 2023 Share #353 Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) Leica 100-400 jpeg out of camera, no edits @400mm, 1/1600, ISO 500, f6.3 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 20, 2023 by Shawn30 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/371396-sl-100-400-f56-6-rebrand-but-not-the-same-lens/?do=findComment&comment=4731338'>More sharing options...
HPFM Posted March 22, 2023 Share #354 Posted March 22, 2023 Got my Leica 100-400 today from my German dealer (Foto Görlitz). Thanks to all the information about possible "bad copies"in terms of sharpnes! To avoid any exchange of the new 100-400 I asked the dealer to do a short test before delivery... I sold my Sigma 100-400 some days ago, so I cannot do a side by side testing of the two - but: look and feel of the lens is Leica, handling is Leica, first shots at 400 seem pretty sharp and absolutely comparable to my 150-600 (Sigma), AF is quiet and fast. Am I happy? Yes. If it is "Sigma inside", Leica successfully made a Leica-lens of it... Is it worth 2200 Euro - a lot of money compared to the Sigma? That's not only technical question...for me: yes. Now I'm exited to see some testing of the Extender - if the 1.4 doesn't reduce optical quality significantly I´ll buy it to replace the 150-600... a really good lens, but for me to heavy to use it all. day long. And my main focus isn't any more birding. I´m doing more and more landscape and hope to use the new lens a lot of time together with the 24-90. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanetomlane Posted March 22, 2023 Share #355 Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/10/2023 at 6:10 PM, LD_50 said: Yes. My 24-90 extends on its own by gravity. Agreed, when I use the shoulder strap on my SL2, or SL, the lens always slips to the 90mm end of the range. Slight annoyance but absolutely love the lens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetwide Posted March 23, 2023 Share #356 Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) On 3/20/2023 at 11:09 AM, Shawn30 said: I got my copy of the Leica VE SL 100-400mm on Saturday and all I can say is that I’m disappointed. It misses focus randomly and it’s not very sharp when it hits focus. The problem could be my SL2, but the problem has only popped up on 2 lens’s ever, the Sigma 100-400, and Leica 100-400 When it nails focus, my copy of the Leica 100-400 isn’t as sharp as the Sigma 150-600 at the same focal length, shutter speed etc. it’s no where near as sharp as the Panasonic 70-300. Again I’ve had no missed focus problems with any other OIS zoom lens besides the two mentioned above. I’ll post a few examples pics I am having the same problem with my new Sigma 100-40mm - inconsistent AF performance. It is slightly worse on my SL2 vs the S1r, but still too unreliable, so Its going back... FYI, when it does focus, it's reasonably sharp at the macro level. But it lacks sharpness on fine detail. The 90-280mm is in a different league. Edited March 23, 2023 by Planetwide 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 23, 2023 Share #357 Posted March 23, 2023 Didn’t you adjust the AF to your needs? There are 16 settings. https://www.sigma-global.com/en/accessories/usb-dock-ud01/ I’m not sure whether the Leica lens has the same option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetwide Posted March 24, 2023 Share #358 Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, jaapv said: Didn’t you adjust the AF to your needs? There are 16 settings. https://www.sigma-global.com/en/accessories/usb-dock-ud01/ I’m not sure whether the Leica lens has the same option. Yes, I had to adjust it to attain good macro focus. This was done with a target. Testing at infinity is the issue, I do get some sharp shots at the macro level, but fine detail is not there even in the centre of the image. Occasionally, I get a shot that appears to be in focus, and was confirmed as in focus when taken, but the resulting image seems to be soft. I am seeing the same thing in MF too, IS on and Off. Its almost is if an element is moving out of position. I will return it and try another. Edited March 24, 2023 by Planetwide 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 24, 2023 Share #359 Posted March 24, 2023 That sounds like shutter slap problem that comes with these long combos. Did Electronic Shutter make a difference? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetwide Posted March 24, 2023 Share #360 Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) Shutter speed was 1000/sec, so not an issue. I have shot the Canon V1, V2 100-400mm's, 500mm & 600mm EF and RF 100-500mm FYI Edited March 24, 2023 by Planetwide Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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