M10 Monochrom Infrared

[adan]

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Just for grins. I ran across a Leitz 39mm IR filter (HOOET/13126?) at the local store, and having my M10M with me, decided to see how it worked.

This is a filter that appears virtually black and opaque to visible light, but leaks a little bit in the deep red if used (carefully!) to, for example, view the sun.

Couple of quick snaps in the store's parking lot. Lens 35mm Summicron ASPH II.

First is the unfiltered scene - exposure 1/4000th sec at f/2.0 at ISO 160. Second is the filtered shot, with exposure 1/15th sec at f/2.0 and ISO 12500. Works out to the filter requiring 20000 times as much light/amplification as without the filter (14.3 f/stops aperture + ISO)

Without bright green foliage to check, not sure if this is really an "infrared" exposure, or just the leaked visible red being enough to eventually register. But the filtered shot definitely required adjusting focus as if it was an infrared picture. Lens set to about 3 meters to achieve best focus plane at about 50m (building at left).

NO FILTER

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LEITZ IR FILTER

Edited March 5, 2023 by adan

[J S H]

It doesn't look like it's a very restrictive IR filter, just based on the sky. I would guess it's effectively filtering the light to a wavelength around 680 or 700nm. Hard to tell for sure, because the sky in the visible light shot does look quite bright. Normally, you need to use a filter (or converted camera) at a wavelength approaching 750 or 780nm to really see a noticeable IR effect, even on green foliage. But, the filter you tested is definitely restricting the visible light if your exposure dropped by 14 stops and your focus point changed that drastically. It could also be that the older technology on vintage filters just wasn't as effective or well corrected as modern IR filters. If you have any desire to experiment farther, I would recommend these filters in the 780nm bandwidth, which are of excellent quality and very competitively priced: https://kolarivision.com/product/kolari-pro-gen-3-infrared-lens-filter/  I have used Kolari for 6 or 8 camera conversions and they are always at the cutting edge for filters and coatings. 

Recently, I have been testing out IR response on the M11. Turns out it's just barely possible to shoot handheld with fast lenses. I shoot Infrared video, timelapse and stills as part of my work, so I have years of experience with all things infrared. It's always interesting to see each camera's response and I can easily compare with my converted cameras to evaluate performance. I would be interested to know more about the IR response of the M10 Monochrom. Maybe someone else on the forum has tested it. 

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[ScienceStar]

On 3/5/2023 at 12:55 PM, adan said:

Just for grins. I ran across a Leitz 39mm IR filter (HOOET/13126?) at the local store, and having my M10M with me, decided to see how it worked.

This is a filter that appears virtually black and opaque to visible light, but leaks a little bit in the deep red if used (carefully!) to, for example, view the sun.

Couple of quick snaps in the store's parking lot. Lens 35mm Summicron ASPH II.

First is the unfiltered scene - exposure 1/4000th sec at f/2.0 at ISO 160. Second is the filtered shot, with exposure 1/15th sec at f/2.0 and ISO 12500. Works out to the filter requiring 20000 times as much light/amplification as without the filter (14.3 f/stops aperture + ISO)

Without bright green foliage to check, not sure if this is really an "infrared" exposure, or just the leaked visible red being enough to eventually register. But the filtered shot definitely required adjusting focus as if it was an infrared picture. Lens set to about 3 meters to achieve best focus plane at about 50m (building at left).

NO FILTER

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LEITZ IR FILTER

J S H - Thank you for sharing this B&W wunderkind for us F:64 Group lovers.  Found a Hoya RM-72 on the Zon for a very affordable price.  Moreover, this makes sense based on the physics of the sensors.  As part of the SONY SEPS1000 (first studio professional digital still camera) development team (led by John Knoll of Photoshop fame), we discovered a trick that was quickly adopted by other camera and chipmakers that is important for monochrome-only camera lovers to understand: Modern chips are not made from an equal number of R-G-B pixel receptors as one might envision.  Most are 2/3rds green.  This massive green channel has the responsibility for assessing, metering, capturing the grayscale as well as objects reflecting or emitting in the green portion of the spectrum.  This means that an 11 or Q/Q2 normal camera when in monochrome mode will be using a majority of the pixels to capture the B&W image, although certainly not directly comparable to a monochrome-only camera chip, it views in monochrome and captures stunning, broad-gamut B&W images.  This filter trick may be a critical key to unlocking that potential.  Thank you again, can't wait to capture the West Texas mountain vistas with this "Ansel Adams technique" filter.  A small part with the potential to create high-impact images.

[jaapv]

How should that work as the B&W mode of the Q and M11 is a JPG derived from an interpolated full-colour file? Not a raw file. The whole point of a monochrome camera is that there is no interpolation with the attendant resolution and tonal range loss with raw output. Yes, the Bayer pattern is well known with the RGB ratio of pixels.  But that is just what it is about: no Bayer filter. The rest of the sensor is identical. 
Nobody doubts that a Q or M full colour can give a very nice B&W result with proper conversion and possibly a colour filter can help although one might run into noise problems. But it still does not make it the best monochrome camera. 
However this thread is about Infrared so I think we should not contaminate it further with B&W discussions which are running elsewhere on the forum. 

[chriscove]

.I have used the Hoya R72 IR filter on the Leica M10M with fairly good results. Not the same as an IR converted camera but if adequate for the convenience 

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Edited March 20, 2023 by chriscove
Typo

[J S H]

Chris, do you remember what your exposure time/ISO/aperture was for these shots? I'm just curious to know how the M10M compares to the M11 in IR sensitivity. I wouldn't be surprised if it had a less restrictive IR filter, but no way to really know without some structured tests. 

[Nimar]

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Not done actual tests but pretty sure i’ve read a couple things about the m11 having a more robust IR filter than the m10  

ReidReviews mentions it among others. 

[chriscove]

15 hours ago, J S H said:

Chris, do you remember what your exposure time/ISO/aperture was for these shots? I'm just curious to know how the M10M compares to the M11 in IR sensitivity. I wouldn't be surprised if it had a less restrictive IR filter, but no way to really know without some structured tests. 

The first was ISO 160, F8 1/12”

The second was the same except 0.7”

They were taken 2 separate days and early morning, one day with clouds, one day clear skies…

[J S H]

3 hours ago, chriscove said:

The first was ISO 160, F8 1/12”

The second was the same except 0.7”

They were taken 2 separate days and early morning, one day with clouds, one day clear skies…

Thank you. That tells me the M10M is MUCH more sensitive to IR than the M11. My testing has shown that with the M11, exposures under those conditions with a 780 filter would be 60 seconds+. This makes sense, as there isn't such a pressing need to limit the IR wavelengths in a monochrome camera.  

If/when Leica releases an M11M, I'll be in line. 

[1joel1]

When I had an M8, I tried a B+W IR-695 Infrarouge 20-40x filter and the results were pretty decent. Here are two test pics I tried in the backyard.

Joel

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[Pintpot]

The M8 was the best 'out of the box' camera for IR digital images, an old one of mine Heliopan filter

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[ramarren]

Hmmm. Somewhere in my mess I have a couple of IR-pass filters. I guess i should  dig them up and experiment. IIRC, one is a 650 cut and the other a 720 cut. Hmmm hmmm hmmmm 😀

G 

[J S H]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:03 PM, ramarren said:

Hmmm. Somewhere in my mess I have a couple of IR-pass filters. I guess i should  dig them up and experiment. IIRC, one is a 650 cut and the other a 720 cut. Hmmm hmmm hmmmm 😀

G 

I would recommend going right to the 720 filter...hopefully you can replicate the results that chriscove saw. If you are using the M10M, it seems that 1 second exposures at F8 with a 720 filter is a good starting point. 

[Nimar]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:03 PM, ramarren said:

Hmmm. Somewhere in my mess I have a couple of IR-pass filters. I guess i should  dig them up and experiment. IIRC, one is a 650 cut and the other a 720 cut. Hmmm hmmm hmmmm 😀

G 

I had a brief affair with a q2m and acquired a number of 49mm filters. Was rather pleased that the VM Lanthars and 7aritsans 1.4/50 used the same size.  Can’t stomach investing in more than two filter sizes, have small 39mm filters and large 49mm filters. Now I refuse to buy any lenses that don’t have either size. 

 

I fully appreciate its not entirely rational but it serves a secondary function of reducing potential GAS. 

[GFW2-SCUSA]

On 3/27/2023 at 5:49 PM, Nimar said:

 

I fully appreciate its not entirely rational but it serves a secondary function of reducing potential GAS. 

Not that I want to cause you a GAS attack, but have you considered using step-down rings which might open the door to more lens choices?  

[Nimar]

7 hours ago, GFW2-SCUSA said:

Not that I want to cause you a GAS attack, but have you considered using step-down rings which might open the door to more lens choices?  

*hides head in sand* never heard of such monstrosities!

I want a 39mm lens to be small. not to be 43mm with a 49mm filter on it. 

The restriction is somewhat arbitrary but it keeps my home life in balance. 

[GFW2-SCUSA]

10 hours ago, Nimar said:

The restriction is somewhat arbitrary but it keeps my home life in balance. 

Home life must always come first! I agree the step-up/down is an ugly solution.