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I made a big mistake by selling my M10!


JoshuaRothman

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4 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

I’ve got an M10-R and have a fantasy of owning a Q3M or M10-M.

However I’m not sure that will financially feasible in the short term.

That’s the biggest disadvantage to Leica: the cost of expansion once you’re on board.

When I first entered the M world in about 2000 with an M7, my recollection is that, whilst certainly not cheap, the lenses generally were not as expensive as today...

I paid $2000 for my APO-Summicron-M 90mm f/2 ASPH in 2002; it now goes for $5500.  The passing of 20+ years and dollar rot/inflation will do that.

What will the 35/2 APO cost in 20 years?  😵  I shudder to think.

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Life has got both more complex and more expensive since then. 

That may very well be the understatement of the decade!

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On 3/2/2023 at 1:44 PM, JoshuaRothman said:

This is the question: is the best possible setup (for me!) a film M, a digital M, and a Q? Possibly it is, but I'm not sure I can afford it....

I started with a Q New, then an M 264 preowned , then SL preowned and just now a M10-R also preowned. I also use a Rollei and a Polaroid. Depending on the project I do I switch. If Budget is a concern, I would switch in and out of models and not buy new or latest model.

As much as I like the Q, cropping a 28MM to 50 is not the same as a 50MM, at the same time, the M is hard to use in low light, especially without Life view on the M264 models.

With Leica, I plan to keep investing in the lenses and switch M and Sl bodies as needed. Q I keep around, but nowadays that is a little like Icing on the cake.

Edited by Jk1002
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Joshua, only you know what gear you truly enjoy using in your photography. Writing this post tells me the M bodies are your calling. The Q series is a excellent but a totally different shooting experience from the M series. You seem to enjoy the manual focusing and the optical rangefinder over a EVF. Do what you must and get back into creating images. Going back to an M body from a Q2 isn't that much of financial difference if you find a used digital M body that suits you.

 

 

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Just to get philosophical for a bit, here's a thought I keep returning to:

I spend a fair amount of time going back over my archives, both to make prints and just for fun. (My pictures are mainly of my family and my travels for work—I'm a writer and journalist.) What strikes me is that, while I've definitely been improving as a photographer, it's often very hard to deduce, from the images alone, which camera I used. The film images stand out, of course (shot on 35mm and 120). But, with digital pictures, did I use a Fujifilm X100F, a Fuji X-Pro3, a Leica CL, a Leica M, a Ricoh GR I/II/III(x), or a Q2? I've spent a lot of time and money shifting among those cameras, and if I really concentrate I can see differences—but they are quite small in comparison to larger shifts I've made that have to do with composition, moment, light, layering, perspective, and so on. I fancy that I can detect the Leica M images, because of something in the way the pictures are framed and layered. But by far the biggest differences have to do with my own skills.

My point is: at least in my case, while there's no question that certain images are harder to make with an M, the archives prove that they still get made. And, in the meantime, using the M is such a good experience. So I think I'm almost certainly going to trade the Q2 back for a digital M. (Unless I have some giant windfall in the next few months....)

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7 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

Just to get philosophical for a bit, here's a thought I keep returning to:

I spend a fair amount of time going back over my archives, both to make prints and just for fun. (My pictures are mainly of my family and my travels for work—I'm a writer and journalist.) What strikes me is that, while I've definitely been improving as a photographer, it's often very hard to deduce, from the images alone, which camera I used. The film images stand out, of course (shot on 35mm and 120). But, with digital pictures, did I use a Fujifilm X100F, a Fuji X-Pro3, a Leica CL, a Leica M, a Ricoh GR I/II/III(x), or a Q2? I've spent a lot of time and money shifting among those cameras, and if I really concentrate I can see differences—but they are quite small in comparison to larger shifts I've made that have to do with composition, moment, light, layering, perspective, and so on. I fancy that I can detect the Leica M images, because of something in the way the pictures are framed and layered. But by far the biggest differences have to do with my own skills.

My point is: at least in my case, while there's no question that certain images are harder to make with an M, the archives prove that they still get made. And, in the meantime, using the M is such a good experience. So I think I'm almost certainly going to trade the Q2 back for a digital M. (Unless I have some giant windfall in the next few months....)


I didn’t spend $10,000+ because Leicas give you some sort of different amazing like no other file. Nowadays all the cameras are good. You don’t even have to spend north of $2,000 for a very good camera and lens that gives you great raw files. 

I shoot the M because of the experience of shooting a digita rangefinder.  It makes me shoot in a different way and any improvement in my photography is due to that. It’s my toolset. What can I say. It’s not about the quality of the file. 

Seems you like to buy gear. And that’s okay. This is the game. Buy stuff sell stuff. 

Me I own 1 camera and 2 lenses. And that’s it. And that’s all I’m ever going to own. I’m done buying cameras. I could care less about them, although I still like lenses and I know eventually I’ll sell the Ultron to replace with a Leica one. 

Edited by Leitz.
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39 minutes ago, Leitz. said:


I didn’t spend $10,000+ because Leicas give you some sort of different amazing like no other file. Nowadays all the cameras are good. You don’t even have to spend north of $2,000 for a very good camera and lens that gives you great raw files. 

I shoot the M because of the experience of shooting a digita rangefinder.  It makes me shoot in a different way and any improvement in my photography is due to that. It’s my toolset. What can I say. It’s not about the quality of the file. 

Seems you like to buy gear. And that’s okay. This is the game. Buy stuff sell stuff. 

Me I own 1 camera and 2 lenses. And that’s it. And that’s all I’m ever going to own. I’m done buying cameras. I could care less about them, although I still like lenses and I know eventually I’ll sell the Ultron to replace with a Leica one. 

Great philosophy. I collected a large amount of Olympus OM stuff on the side of owning some other things (Sony, Leica mainly) over the years. The other things came and went as the OM stuff grew. I kept trying to find something that was as good as the Leica M but cheaper... I tried solely shooting film on the OM gear, and whilst B&W is great ((I have a darkroom), Colour is very inferior to digital now and so expensive.

 

However film gear, especially Olympus OM lenses have rocketed in price. So at Xmas I decided to sell all 12 OM cameras and 20 lenses put half the cash to a holiday and buy a simple Leica M kit again, carefully chosen used items that I'm familiar with. M7, M10-P + 24 Elmarit, 35 Summilux ASPH pre-FLE, 50 Summilux ASPH. 2 bodies, 3 lenses. That's it. I'm done.

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22 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

Great philosophy. I collected a large amount of Olympus OM stuff on the side of owning some other things (Sony, Leica mainly) over the years. The other things came and went as the OM stuff grew. I kept trying to find something that was as good as the Leica M but cheaper... I tried solely shooting film on the OM gear, and whilst B&W is great ((I have a darkroom), Colour is very inferior to digital now and so expensive.

 

However film gear, especially Olympus OM lenses have rocketed in price. So at Xmas I decided to sell all 12 OM cameras and 20 lenses put half the cash to a holiday and buy a simple Leica M kit again, carefully chosen used items that I'm familiar with. M7, M10-P + 24 Elmarit, 35 Summilux ASPH pre-FLE, 50 Summilux ASPH. 2 bodies, 3 lenses. That's it. I'm done.

yea. This is all my camera gear 

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Edited by Leitz.
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I am recovering from cataract surgery in both eyes and in my 8th decade realize that AF is my friend. I am keeping my M10 (and M4) and my stable of M lenses from 24mm to 135mm to use once in awhile, especially with the EVF on the M10. I have a Q2M and am also acquiring another Q2 (sold my first one) so that for walk around street work I can have both B&W and colour readily available. If you can keep the Q I recommend you do that - there will come a time when you may return to it.

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I definitely feel the OP's pain... I love my M10-P and won't part with it anytime soon, but there are occasions when I feel like I want AF and an easy carry... I'll be honest the M10 makes me think as a Photographer and there are times such as family and travel time, when I don't want to think I simply want to point and shoot.

I have an X100V Fujifilm which is a cracking little camera, but the files it produces are nowhere near as nice as the M10 files.  I don't shoot JPG only RAW so the film simulations Fuji offer are of little interest. 

I've been considering selling all my gear (Z7ii, ZFC, X100v) and putting it all towards a Q2 so that I can stay completely in the Leica fold, with the M10-P & Q2.  Just haven't got the courage built up just yet to sell it all and make the jump ( I have GAS & FOMO syndrome). 😆

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19 minutes ago, erniethemilk said:

I definitely feel the OP's pain... I love my M10-P and won't part with it anytime soon, but there are occasions when I feel like I want AF and an easy carry... I'll be honest the M10 makes me think as a Photographer and there are times such as family and travel time, when I don't want to think I simply want to point and shoot.

Yes, this is a really good summary of what I missed about the Q2. Sometimes you just want to be there and take (beautiful) pictures. You don't want to Make Photographs™.

I've just placed an order for a used M10. I've also taken on a little extra work through a "side hustle." This means that I may be able to keep all three cameras (M10, M4-P, Q2). Or I may let go of the Q2, and keep things simple. I'll shoot with all three for a bit and see how it shakes out!

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16 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

Yes, this is a really good summary of what I missed about the Q2. Sometimes you just want to be there and take (beautiful) pictures. You don't want to Make Photographs™.

I've just placed an order for a used M10. I've also taken on a little extra work through a "side hustle." This means that I may be able to keep all three cameras (M10, M4-P, Q2). Or I may let go of the Q2, and keep things simple. I'll shoot with all three for a bit and see how it shakes out!

Yes, it's all about total investment in gear v the opportunity cost / affordability. I can't justify another £4000 on top of my £13,000 of (used) M kit. One day I might pick up a Q2 if the prices fall on a Q3 release. However even the Q is still £2000 used. Meanwhile a Sony RX1RM2 picked up in Tokyo for £1400 fills the need. TBH the images are excellent and the camera is smaller and 35mm, but the EVF, battery life and general handling are way superior on the Q2.

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On 3/5/2023 at 7:52 PM, Leitz. said:

Me I own 1 camera and 2 lenses. And that’s it. And that’s all I’m ever going to own. I’m done buying cameras. I could care less about them, although I still like lenses and I know eventually I’ll sell the Ultron to replace with a Leica one. 

Getting down to that level of minimalism, with a Leica, is not something you land on first attempt, it would have taken many iterations, time and money to build up the experience that told you this single Leica is it. 

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Am 2.3.2023 um 17:52 schrieb JoshuaRothman:

I came to Leica through the Q2, then eventually ended up with a film and digital M setup. All was well, bliss abounded in my hobby kingdom, and I enjoyed the supreme elegance of sharing a set of lenses between film and digital bodies that operated exactly the same.

Then, one day, after a few minor frustrations with rangefinder focusing, I started to think about my old Q2. Hadn't it been convenient to have a digital camera capable of crop-to-zoom, eliminating the need to carry multiple lenses? Wasn't autofocus incredibly useful? What about that totally silent leaf shutter? I looked back through my Lightroom catalog and was impressed by all the pictures of my family I'd taken with my Q2. They looked so clear and vivid! The M10 could be a bit of a pain, especially when it came to focussing on moving children in bad light.... Maybe, I thought, a film camera should be a film camera, and a digital camera should be fully modern and digital. I sold my M10 and picked up a Q2 for the second time, to use alongside my M4-P.

Well . . . . a few weeks in, I'm discovering that this was a big mistake. Sure enough, the Q2 takes great pictures. But I really miss my M10. Now that I have a Q2 again, I'm realizing how much more I enjoy the directness of manual focus and to the simplicity of an optical viewfinder. It's as though, during the time I was all-M, I forgot what an EVF/AF camera was really like. I used to think that AF was fast, and it can be, but it can also be slow and fiddly. The Q2 images are beautiful, but I miss the way my Zeiss 50 Sonnar looked on the M10. Etc., etc., etc.

I feel totally dumb. I had a fantastic setup and have lost it! Now the only way back to paradise is to trade the Q2 for an M10 again, almost certainly incurring a financial penalty along the way.

This is probably my biggest-ever gear regret event!

It´s funny, and iam happy, that im not the only person with this problems.

i´ve done they exactly same dessicions for and after. buying, after a few weeks, regreting, buying back, loose some money, again and again.

 

last year i had q2,m10 and some analog m. my struggle was, which camera system to pick for a walk etc..

and when i had some vacations, i end up bring every system to the other country. so i decided to sell the m10 (because of kids, pets and some frustration calibration problems with the rangefinder)

this year, i bought a m10r and use it belongside my analog m´s.

my q2 is at home, ready to sell and ship, but your note makes me thinking if i should keep the q2. right it is about 3500 € worth. next year, i think not many euros less.

 

so.....

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If ever possible, keep the Q2 and a M10. Both are a very good combination and for me, the best of two worlds. There are situations were also the Q is a perfect companion especially if you travel. For sure you will miss the Q2 after selling it. Avoid this feeling of regret and keep it!!!!!!

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2 hours ago, benqui said:

If ever possible, keep the Q2 and a M10. Both are a very good combination and for me, the best of two worlds. There are situations were also the Q is a perfect companion especially if you travel. For sure you will miss the Q2 after selling it. Avoid this feeling of regret and keep it!!!!!!

Funny how differently everyone works. 'Travel' for me is the serious photography time and I wouldn't dream of not taking whatever my primary system is at the time (M7, M10p, 24 elmarit, 35 lux, 50 Lux currently). The AF small camera is the 'walks at home', out for the day with the family, stick in the bag when commuting into central London' camera.... 

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vor 39 Minuten schrieb newtoleica:

Funny how differently everyone works. 'Travel' for me is the serious photography time and I wouldn't dream of not taking whatever my primary system is at the time (M7, M10p, 24 elmarit, 35 lux, 50 Lux currently). The AF small camera is the 'walks at home', out for the day with the family, stick in the bag when commuting into central London' camera.... 

yes, very funny! The most important thing is that we both have the perfect solution for our photography

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Recently I was really in doubt: may be the Q2 should be traded in for a m10r.

That said, this week I am on a little trip and must say that the Q and m10m with 50mm to me is a great combination.

I set the Q to b/w, and it all came together. Happy I did not fall into the never ending gas trap.

 

at least for now…

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9 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Recently I was really in doubt: may be the Q2 should be traded in for a m10r.

That said, this week I am on a little trip and must say that the Q and m10m with 50mm to me is a great combination.

I set the Q to b/w, and it all came together. Happy I did not fall into the never ending gas trap.

 

at least for now…

Until you contemplate a ….  M10-R set to B&W

Edited by dugby
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