New M6 article by Jono.

[oldwino]

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This topic has sure taken an interesting turn…🤔

[Huss]

4 hours ago, jonoslack said:

...

This is me, not Leica, and it makes me wonder . . . . . . 

But when I posted this I wasn't aware of the furore! @Huss did you get a good response from Leica?

I can't take back these images, but I really hope that everyone who has read the thread sees this!

Did I get a good response from Leica?

well, they did tell me that the M6s scratching film is due to a bad batch of pressure plates.  So this means it is not a one off, but there are a whole bunch of scratching new M6s out there. We also know that Leica builds its cameras in batches, so it would seem that it is extremely likely that any camera that was built in the same batch as mine is also a scratcher.

I bought mine in November.  
 

Now to make matters worse, Leica replaced the pressure plate in my camera with a new one.  That new one also scratched the film - which the techs at Leica in NJ acknowledged.  So Leica is replacing defective pressure plates with new defective pressure plates.  Just when you didn’t think it could get worse, they didn’t even check the camera to see if it no longer scratched film.  Just shipped it back to me where I discovered that.  Shipped back - they acknowledged that.

Is that the end of the story?  No.  They replaced the pressure plate with a third one - this time shipped from Germany - and were about to ship it to me last Wednesday.  I contacted them immediately on Wednesday and asked if they had checked to see if it now no longer scratches the film.  They had not. So they pulled it out of the UPS pickup and are going to check it again.

Is that it? No.  My ISO dial is also defective - again Leica NJ verified that - and when I asked on Wednesday if they fixed it, they said they forgot to look at that.

This is Leica HQ in the United States.  No, I did not get a good response.  And I find it extremely hard to believe when I see your camera’s results, that had scratches just like mine, that was most probably made at the same time as mine, using the same batch of defective pressure plates, that your camera is ‘good’.

Maybe it is, maybe be some remarkable stroke of luck even though your camera was built at the same time as mine, somehow the one untainted pressure plate from the entire defective batch made it through to your camera.

Or maybe you need to check the actual negatives from your last pics, instead of viewing scans.  Because that ICE software covers up scratches.

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[MarkP]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

... they didn’t even check the camera to see if it no longer scratched film.  Just shipped it back to me where I discovered that.  Shipped back - they acknowledged that...

...They replaced the pressure plate with a third one - this time shipped from Germany - and were about to ship it to me last Wednesday.  I contacted them immediately on Wednesday and asked if they had checked to see if it now no longer scratches the film.  They had not...

...My ISO dial is also defective - again Leica NJ verified that - and when I asked on Wednesday if they fixed it, they said they forgot to look at that...

Unbelievable 🙄.

I would be extremely pissed off...

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

Did I get a good response from Leica?

well, they did tell me that the M6s scratching film is due to a bad batch of pressure plates.  So this means it is not a one off, but there are a whole bunch of scratching new M6s out there. We also know that Leica builds its cameras in batches, so it would seem that it is extremely likely that any camera that was built in the same batch as mine is also a scratcher.

I bought mine in November.  
 

Now to make matters worse, Leica replaced the pressure plate in my camera with a new one.  That new one also scratched the film - which the techs at Leica in NJ acknowledged.  So Leica is replacing defective pressure plates with new defective pressure plates.  Just when you didn’t think it could get worse, they didn’t even check the camera to see if it no longer scratched film.  Just shipped it back to me where I discovered that.  Shipped back - they acknowledged that.

Is that the end of the story?  No.  They replaced the pressure plate with a third one - this time shipped from Germany - and were about to ship it to me last Wednesday.  I contacted them immediately on Wednesday and asked if they had checked to see if it now no longer scratches the film.  They had not. So they pulled it out of the UPS pickup and are going to check it again.

Is that it? No.  My ISO dial is also defective - again Leica NJ verified that - and when I asked on Wednesday if they fixed it, they said they forgot to look at that.

This is Leica HQ in the United States.  No, I did not get a good response.  And I find it extremely hard to believe when I see your camera’s results, that had scratches just like mine, that was most probably made at the same time as mine, using the same batch of defective pressure plates, that your camera is ‘good’.

Maybe it is, maybe be some remarkable stroke of luck even though your camera was built at the same time as mine, somehow the one untainted pressure plate from the entire defective batch made it through to your camera.

Or maybe you need to check the actual negatives from your last pics, instead of viewing scans.  Because that ICE software covers up scratches.

Hi there

i didn’t think that ICE worked with HP5? 
But you make a sensible point and it seems obvious that I have the same problem as you do. 
Tomorrow I will re-scan the first batch of negatives from the processing on my Plustek. I was going to do this at some point anyway as I’m interested in doing an article on different scanning techniques. 
 

I’ll report back here later. 
 

…….. and I’m really sorry for the obvious problems you’ve been having. 
 

More Later

all the best

[28framelines]

9 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Okay - so the best thing I can do here is to post some scans direct from Exposure Lab taken with the same camera.

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Jono please tell me what lens you used for that first colour photo… the image is dreamlike and the colours render so beautifully!

[Dan Jackson]

Hi,

This is my first post in a long time, but I purchased a new MP at the end of November (with a manufacturing date of 3/11/22.). I had a similar scratch pattern to Jono’s first photo in his article. 4 films have been sent to 3 different labs and all images have straight scratch lines showing on my scans. I’ve sent a film from another camera also and it shows no straight scratch lines. The camera is now with Leica in Germany. I’ve just looked at Jono’s latest images again and on the last image (the tree trunk) there is a scratch line about a quarter of the way up from the bottom of the image. 

I hope Leica resolves this issue quickly.

Dan

[Dan Jackson]

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Just check manufacturing date again. It was actually 2/11/2022. Small point but it may be relevant.

Dan

[tjxism]

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi there

i didn’t think that ICE worked with HP5? 
But you make a sensible point and it seems obvious that I have the same problem as you do. 
Tomorrow I will re-scan the first batch of negatives from the processing on my Plustek. I was going to do this at some point anyway as I’m interested in doing an article on different scanning techniques. 
 

I’ll report back here later. 
 

…….. and I’m really sorry for the obvious problems you’ve been having. 
 

More Later

all the best

Hi Jono, first, congrats on the new camera.

I see you use Plustek for scanning. FYI, it makes the scratch look much worth. Okay, the scratch on film is the same but much more obvious on scanned file comparing to other scanning methods. I think it's because of how the film scanner illuminates the negative. My MP made in late 2019 has the exact same scratch while scanning with Plustek, much less (but still) visible if "scanned" with a digital camera and macro lens. 

Therefore I used a digital cam for scanning for the past 2 years but now I changed back to Plustek. I can no longer deal with the scratch and sent my MP back to Leica asking for a free repair. Haven't heard from them yet.

 

Just reading through this forum, there a quite a few faulty cameras with the same issue in Leica Wetzlar right at this moment. Can't believe how they still fail to fix it (from Huss' experience). 

[tjxism]

6 hours ago, Huss said:

Did I get a good response from Leica?

well, they did tell me that the M6s scratching film is due to a bad batch of pressure plates.  So this means it is not a one off, but there are a whole bunch of scratching new M6s out there. We also know that Leica builds its cameras in batches, so it would seem that it is extremely likely that any camera that was built in the same batch as mine is also a scratcher.

I bought mine in November.  
 

Now to make matters worse, Leica replaced the pressure plate in my camera with a new one.  That new one also scratched the film - which the techs at Leica in NJ acknowledged.  So Leica is replacing defective pressure plates with new defective pressure plates.  Just when you didn’t think it could get worse, they didn’t even check the camera to see if it no longer scratched film.  Just shipped it back to me where I discovered that.  Shipped back - they acknowledged that.

Is that the end of the story?  No.  They replaced the pressure plate with a third one - this time shipped from Germany - and were about to ship it to me last Wednesday.  I contacted them immediately on Wednesday and asked if they had checked to see if it now no longer scratches the film.  They had not. So they pulled it out of the UPS pickup and are going to check it again.

Is that it? No.  My ISO dial is also defective - again Leica NJ verified that - and when I asked on Wednesday if they fixed it, they said they forgot to look at that.

This is Leica HQ in the United States.  No, I did not get a good response.  And I find it extremely hard to believe when I see your camera’s results, that had scratches just like mine, that was most probably made at the same time as mine, using the same batch of defective pressure plates, that your camera is ‘good’.

Maybe it is, maybe be some remarkable stroke of luck even though your camera was built at the same time as mine, somehow the one untainted pressure plate from the entire defective batch made it through to your camera.

Or maybe you need to check the actual negatives from your last pics, instead of viewing scans.  Because that ICE software covers up scratches.

I doubt if the pressure plate is the only cause of the scratch. My MP came with a "new" glass "scratching" pressure plate . A local repair shop changed it to the "old" smooth plate,  the scratch persisted (exact same pattern). 

[tjxism]

18 minutes ago, Dan Jackson said:

Just check manufacturing date again. It was actually 2/11/2022. Small point but it may be relevant.

Dan

My scratching MP was made on 2019/11/07. The date isn't relevant. 

[logan2z]

57 minutes ago, Dan Jackson said:

Hi,

I’ve just looked at Jono’s latest images again and on the last image (the tree trunk) there is a scratch line about a quarter of the way up from the bottom of the image. 

Yup, I see it

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[logan2z]

I see what appears to be a scratch on the fourth image in Jono's post as well...

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[logan2z]

Photo #3 as well...

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[jonoslack]

Hi There

especially @Huss (was yours worse than that)

Well, some thorough investigation of lab processed and scanned files shows that there is indeed some scratching about 1/4 up the frame, but seemingly only near the edges:

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I have to say I don't feel to guilty for having missed it, but what I'm going to do later is to rescan this negative on the Plustek and see if it's noticeably worse.

I've looked at a whole roll, and it's pretty much the same - I still find it's interesting that it doesn't seem to happen in the middle of the frame.

It's not visible in any of the colour images (presumably because they are using ICE in the scanning).

All the best

Jono (eating his words together with some humble pie) Slack

[250swb]

While there are a myriad of possibilities and no denial that the camera is causing scratches I'm still wondering if film curl and/or tension is the cause of variability. For example Tri-X and HP5 tend to be curly films with a lot of spring in the film base, but colour negative and Ilford Delta films tend to have a less springy film base. So while it may be the pressure plate at fault the scratches are variable because of the way the film is responding to the pressure of the pressure plate, too much pressure, or too little, and early or late on the roll or all the way through the roll. I'm sure Leica must have investigated if there is an alternative answer, like a rough edge somewhere else in the camera, but just in case is there anybody with an old M6 film door they can clip onto their new M6 and test for scratches before it gets sent back to Leica? Maybe it's worth talking about film to see if there are any common denominators?

[John Robinson]

Having seen many scratched negatives over the years (mostly caused by dust in the camera or on the felt in the re-used cassette), a key question is whether the scratch is on the emulsion side of the film or the back.

If the back, suspect the pressure plate (may be dust).

If the emulsion, look at the gate and surrounding surfaces (again, may be dust).

Remember the First AD shouting "gate check" at the camera assistant after each take?

Just a thought.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

While there are a myriad of possibilities and no denial that the camera is causing scratches I'm still wondering if film curl and/or tension is the cause of variability. For example Tri-X and HP5 tend to be curly films with a lot of spring in the film base, but colour negative and Ilford Delta films tend to have a less springy film base. So while it may be the pressure plate at fault the scratches are variable because of the way the film is responding to the pressure of the pressure plate, too much pressure, or too little, and early or late on the roll or all the way through the roll. I'm sure Leica must have investigated if there is an alternative answer, like a rough edge somewhere else in the camera, but just in case is there anybody with an old M6 film door they can clip onto their new M6 and test for scratches before it gets sent back to Leica? Maybe it's worth talking about film to see if there are any common denominators?

Hi there

That's an interesting point (I don't have one) - We've just been looking at negatives from Silas's 2006(about) MP, and when scanned at high res you can also identify tiny scratches in a regular position (he'd never noticed it before, hasn't seen it on prints and isn't worried about it now).

all the best

Jono

[Mikep996]

OK, I have to wonder if we are overthinking all this....

I have stated that in all my film camera experience (mostly Leica/Nikon/Canon/Pentax) I have never seen scratches on my negatives that were caused by a camera.  BUT, I never printed an image at the sort of enlargements that are being shown in some of these posts to demonstrate the scratches.  And I never thought to carefully examine a roll of film looking for scratches.  IOW, maybe there WERE some scratches on my negatives that weren't noticeable in the final image.  Almost all of the 'scratched images I have seen posted here show a lot of film grain that indicates a pretty extreme enlargement/crop.  In the last set of posted pics, I couldn't see any scratches until an extreme enlargement with the specific intent of looking for scratches revealed them in a subsequent post.

Scanning negative film is, in itself, a 'corruption' of the process of producing a final image from film.  Scanning/digitizing film has no relation at all to how film was designed to be processed/printed.   Has anyone with these scratches printed an image in the darkroom as film images were inherently designed to be?  IOW, if you take  35mm negative, enlarge it to whatever print size in the darkroom AND view it at normal viewing distance, are the 'scratches' visible?  Maybe yes, maybe no but if you work at microscopically examining a film surface, there WILL be scratches...heck, maybe from the film production itself.  It's like looking at a nice portrait photo of pretty/handsome face and then enlarging/cropping to see all the flaws in the skin...🤮  The flaws were always there but you don't notice/see them until you look for them.

I absolutely agree that some of the scratches I have seen in posted images of the film strip itself clearly indicate some defect in the camera involved.  But in reviewing many of the images, I'm wondering if the scratches would visible/noticeable in a print that was produced by the method that film was designed for and viewed at a normal viewing distance.  

Heck, maybe all of our film cameras scratched film but it was never noticed until scanning/pixel peeping became the way we evaluate images. 🙄 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Mikep996

[Steve Ricoh]

20 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

OK, I have to wonder if we are overthinking all this....

I have stated that in all my film camera experience (mostly Leica/Nikon/Canon/Pentax) I have never seen scratches on my negatives that were caused by a camera.  BUT, I never printed an image at the sort of enlargements that are being shown in some of these posts to demonstrate the scratches.  And I never thought to carefully examine a roll of film looking for scratches.  IOW, maybe there WERE some scratches on my negatives that weren't noticeable in the final image.  Almost all of the 'scratched images I have seen posted here show a lot of film grain that indicates a pretty extreme enlargement/crop.  In the last set of posted pics, I couldn't see any scratches until an extreme enlargement with the specific intent of looking for scratches revealed them in a subsequent post.

Scanning negative film is, in itself, a 'corruption' of the process of producing a final image from film.  Scanning/digitizing film has no relation at all to how film was designed to be processed/printed.   Has anyone with these scratches printed an image in the darkroom as film images were inherently designed to be?  IOW, if you take  35mm negative, enlarge it to whatever print size in the darkroom AND view it at normal viewing distance, are the 'scratches' visible?  Maybe yes, maybe no but if you work at microscopically examining a film surface, there WILL be scratches...heck, maybe from the film production itself.  It's like looking at a nice portrait photo of pretty/handsome face and then enlarging/cropping to see all the flaws in the skin...🤮  The flaws were always there but you don't notice/see them until you look for them.

I absolutely agree that some of the scratches I have seen in posted images of the film strip itself clearly indicate some defect in the camera involved.  But in reviewing many of the images, I'm wondering if the scratches would visible/noticeable in a print that was produced by the method that film was designed for and viewed at a normal viewing distance.  

Heck, maybe all of our film cameras scratched film but it was never noticed until scanning/pixel peeping became the way we evaluate images. 🙄 

 

 

 

Leica have held there hand up at the back of the class, admitting the build suffers from a defective batch of pressure plates. It’s batch related and if (big if) I was buying I would want reassurance the deceive batch had been recalled from the dealers, thus minimising the likelihood of receiving a scratcher. The manufacture should have records.

Some people see the scratches some don’t, but the brain is good at filtering constants in a scene. Probably evolutionary survival techniques to filter out static objects. If a tiger moves, especially in your direction, you know you’re in trouble. 

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[250swb]

23 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

 

Heck, maybe all of our film cameras scratched film but it was never noticed until scanning/pixel peeping became the way we evaluate images. 🙄 

 

It's true that scratches don't show as much in a traditional print, and if you had a choice besides the nice gentle light source one of the reasons for using a cold cathode enlarger instead of a condenser enlarger was that the diffused light made dust and scratches disappear. It depends on which side of the negative the scratch is though. But there are people reporting scratches from their M6 when they also use Nikon's and other cameras and scan both the same way.