Getting first Leica M from Ebay....

[Wildcolugoman]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi, I'm intending to get my first Leica M film camera from ebay. Eyeing the M5 just because it's the oddball with superb ergonomics.
Should I get one that is 'all clean; no problems with operations' from a 100% positive reviews kind of seller, or should I consider a CLA'd copy from a 95% positive reviews seller?

Do I really need to pay a few hundred to $1000 more for a CLA'd copy?

[250swb]

Don't assume eBay is the cheap option. Do your research on dealer prices, they'll be more likely to describe the camera accurately and offer a six month warranty, and should anything be found in testing most dealers will offer to send it for a CLA at their own expense, or your money back. 

The M5 is a tricky camera, any camera tech can strip down and repair any non-metered Leica M, and they can do most things on an M6 etc. except repair the meter, but with spares becoming scarce many techs won't touch an M5, so mechanical condition is paramount. 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Al Brown]

Both are a 50-50 chance of getting a great one.

[Huss]

1 hour ago, Wildcolugoman said:

Hi, I'm intending to get my first Leica M film camera from ebay. Eyeing the M5 just because it's the oddball with superb ergonomics.
Should I get one that is 'all clean; no problems with operations' from a 100% positive reviews kind of seller, or should I consider a CLA'd copy from a 95% positive reviews seller?

Do I really need to pay a few hundred to $1000 more for a CLA'd copy?

Where are you located?  You may be able to find some in your area.

It seems every Leica sold is claimed to have had a CLA.  A CLA  means nothing unless there is documented proof that it was done by a reliable and known tech.

The M5’s Achilles’ Heel is the rf prism delaminating.  Tell tale signs are drip or tear like patterns visible in the rangefinder patch. It can suddenly separate leaving you with a black and unusable rf patch.  This is due to the balsam cement failing due to age.  Mine did that and the repair was about $600.

Another is a tiny triangle shaped light leak which may present itself in the bottom left corner of your image. This fix is tough to perform correctly but doable.  Mine has been repaired.  

[jaapv]

Question for the forum: I can buy a ticket from two lotteries. One is cheaper and the other claims a better chance of a rize. Which one should i buy?  

[pgk]

If you do a little bit of research by comparing known and well-established dealer's prices for Leica equipment with those being asked by mostly unknown sellers on ebay I suspect that you will find ebay prices to be higher - this is certainly my experience. Dealers usually offer a decent warranty, are subject to consumer protecting legislation and reputable dealers have their good reputation for ovious reasons. If you want to buy an M it is really well worth looking at what dealers have in stock.

Also, you may find that there are cheaper cameras on ebay, but again most will be cheap for a reason. Few dealers want to sell cameras which are not in particularly good condition because putting a warranty on a cheaper camera which might cost a lot to fix within the warranty period, is not a way to make good profits nor retain customers. Some dealers do sell stuff cheap with descriptions which state why and reduced warranties and some do sell such equipent on ebay where they can offer only the barest of safeguards (returns not warranties), and probably do so to clear equipment too risky to offer a full warranty on. 

Lastly, yes, you can find bargains on eBay. To do so you really do have to be well informed about the item you are trying to buy, hope that someone posts such an item at a low price and be prepared to negotiate if at all possible with the seller. I have bought stuff very cheaply on this basis. I have had seller's unprepared to negotiate and despite good offers have let auctions run their course and this has, as a result, enabled me to buy things for far less than I have offered. All this requires knowledge of the item you want to buy though and works best for non-mainstream items. For well-known expensive items like M cameras I would suspect that bargains are rare because too many people are well informed of their potential worth.

[dpitt]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The M5 is a great camera, but be aware that the lightmeter is using obsolete mercury battery cells (1,35 V). It will accept 1,5 V of the same size but your reading will be of. There are solutions but the best way is to have it modified to use 1,5V cells.

Of course you can use the M5 without meter as well AFAIK times are all mechanic.

Edited February 21, 2023 by dpitt

[Matlock]

16 minutes ago, dpitt said:

The M5 is a great camera, but be aware that the lightmeter is using obsolete mercury battery cells (1,35 V). It will accept 1,5 V of the same size but your reading will be of. There are solutions but the best way is to have it modified to use 1,5V cells.

Of course you can use the M5 without meter as well AFAIK times are all mechanic.

Sadly the 1.5 Silver cells are no longer available so you will need an adaptor MR-9 (or plain adaptor).

[Wildcolugoman]

Thanks to everyone for their inputs.

I'm located in Singapore. Not many M5s in the used market here. I've seen a couple but they feel 'loose' rather than taut/snappy. Is that usual? 

What do you mean by dealers? As in reputable/dedicated camera shops like Map Camera in Japan versus individual sellers?

Or should I save some money and go for an M6 TTL (would the slightly larger shutter dial give the same experience as the M5)?

 

[250swb]

8 minutes ago, Wildcolugoman said:

Thanks to everyone for their inputs.

I'm located in Singapore. Not many M5s in the used market here. I've seen a couple but they feel 'loose' rather than taut/snappy. Is that usual? 

What do you mean by dealers? As in reputable/dedicated camera shops like Map Camera in Japan versus individual sellers?

Or should I save some money and go for an M6 TTL (would the slightly larger shutter dial give the same experience as the M5)?

 

Dealers as in camera shops or recognised specialists.

[Matlock]

3 hours ago, Huss said:

Where are you located?  You may be able to find some in your area.

It seems every Leica sold is claimed to have had a CLA.  A CLA  means nothing unless there is documented proof that it was done by a reliable and known tech.

The M5’s Achilles’ Heel is the rf prism delaminating.  Tell tale signs are drip or tear like patterns visible in the rangefinder patch. It can suddenly separate leaving you with a black and unusable rf patch.  This is due to the balsam cement failing due to age.  Mine did that and the repair was about $600.

Another is a tiny triangle shaped light leak which may present itself in the bottom left corner of your image. This fix is tough to perform correctly but doable.  Mine has been repaired.  

Agree with your comments. The prism problem mostly affects the very early models so avoid those if possible. CLA, as you say. usually means nothing at all unless you know what has been done rather than just "clean, lubricate and adjust"

[jaapv]

If you get a well- priced functioning camera and have a reputable repair shop do an overhaul  you would be best off. About the M6 TTL it would not be my first choice. I prefer the classic M6   Even if the electronics are non-repairable. Another alternative would be an M4 and an exposure meter like the small stick-Voigtlander   

[rsh]

11 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Agree with your comments. The prism problem mostly affects the very early models so avoid those if possible. CLA, as you say. usually means nothing at all unless you know what has been done rather than just "clean, lubricate and adjust"

Look for a 3 Lug M5.  

[Ko.Fe.]

CLA could be from few hundreds to one thousand easily. If it is real CLA, copy should be provided with costs included.

All of M5 "ergonomics" are flashed to the toilet by placing of VF too far from the edge of the body, BTW.

[Pyrogallol]

I am tempted by an M5 from time to time, like this one http://www.peterloy.com/stock-list.ph but am put off by the discussion on the forum about the broken drum rollers that cannot be replaced. The cheapest bargain Leica type camera body I have bought on e Bay is a FED 1g for £29, fully working.

 

[Wildcolugoman]

This is getting interesting. I'm getting valuable info from real M5 users encountering real issues (but of course, this is a user forum!)

In as much as I would like to own a Leica M5, it seems there are inherent risks to consider.

Advice so far points to narrowing search to (low risk to high risk):

1. CLA'd with documentation 3-lug variant at 134xxxxxx, 135xxxxxxx onwards.

2. Non CLA'd 3 lug variant. If it ain't broken, no need to fix it. Otherwise send for CLA after purchasing.

Now for #1, if the CLA involved shutter curtain replacement and voltage modification together with the usual cleaning, lube and adjustments, would that be a safe bet to say it's 'good as new' which would probably last another (more than a) few years?

Edited February 21, 2023 by Wildcolugoman

[plaidshirts]

36 minutes ago, Wildcolugoman said:

...Now for #1, if the CLA involved shutter curtain replacement and voltage modification together with the usual cleaning, lube and adjustments, would that be a safe bet to say it's 'good as new' which would probably last another (more than a) few years?

It's impossible to say with a still decades old camera, but you're still in the best position possible.

When I'm buying something like this, whether on eBay or not, I do one of two things:

1. Get the cheapest, best looking, untouched one available knowing it would need a complete teardown CLA costing an additional $3-500 or more, depending on work necessary.

2. Buy from reputable dealers/repairers where they are willing to stand behind their product, but know you'll be paying top dollar for that peace of mind. A 95% rating on eBay seems too low to me, stick with 99-100% sellers.

Good luck! I hope you get what you want.

Edited February 21, 2023 by plaidshirts

[kivis]

eBay is a crap shoot. I have bought and sold over a 100 Leica M's. Once bought an M3 on eBay for super cheap dollars. Sent it to DAG for a CLA, etc. He tells me the whole inside is stripped out, no can do. 

Buy from:

KEH

Robert's Used

PopFlash

Leica Miami

Camera West

Tamarakin

And many others who also stand by their sales.

I've heard the M5 is a bear to repair.

Be prepared for sticker shock.

Good Luck

[Anbaric]

7 hours ago, Wildcolugoman said:

Hi, I'm intending to get my first Leica M film camera from ebay. Eyeing the M5 just because it's the oddball with superb ergonomics.
Should I get one that is 'all clean; no problems with operations' from a 100% positive reviews kind of seller, or should I consider a CLA'd copy from a 95% positive reviews seller?

Do I really need to pay a few hundred to $1000 more for a CLA'd copy?

In general, I would not buy anything more expensive than a roll of film from a 95% ebay seller. I have had problems with sellers with much better feedback than that. As with any ebay purchase, look specifically at the negative reviews and see how they were earned (unfortunately, I think ebay limits how far back you can search, which can mask older bad feedback). I have certainly bought some good cameras on ebay, including a Leica, but also quite a few bad ones that I had to return (or should have returned). With professional dealers, I've never had an issue I wasn't fully aware of at the time of purchase. With ebay, let's just say that some sellers don't go out of their way to point out the defects. Perhaps not surprisingly, some of my best experiences on ebay have been with sellers who are also professional dealers and have a reputation to protect outside the ebay platform. A CLA of unknown provenance can mean more or less anything, from some random bodger/kludger getting out an oil can and flooding the mechanism to stop it grinding, to a full professional strip down and factory spec rebuild from a respected technician. If you go to a good professional dealer advertising a serviced camera, they should be able to tell you exactly what was done and offer a guarantee. Dealer prices aren't necessarily more expensive, either.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[dpitt]

1 hour ago, Wildcolugoman said:

This is getting interesting. I'm getting valuable info from real M5 users encountering real issues (but of course, this is a user forum!)

In as much as I would like to own a Leica M5, it seems there are inherent risks to consider.

Advice so far points to narrowing search to (low risk to high risk):

1. CLA'd with documentation 3-lug variant at 134xxxxxx, 135xxxxxxx onwards.

2. Non CLA'd 3 lug variant. If it ain't broken, no need to fix it. Otherwise send for CLA after purchasing.

Now for #1, if the CLA involved shutter curtain replacement and voltage modification together with the usual cleaning, lube and adjustments, would that be a safe bet to say it's 'good as new' which would probably last another (more than a) few years?

I have seen M3's last for 60 years without CLA and still working fine. IMO any M can last that long in optimal circumstances. Using it regularly, that keeps the gears running. And try not to drop it. They are built to last, so normal use should not harm them. The same goes for the M5. I think it was the most expensive M (prouction cost to Leica) ever. Leica almost went bancrupt because of it. The M5 has features no other M had or will have, like showing the exposure setting in the VF and a better lightmeter indication. It has a rapid film loading mechanism...

I have a 129xxxx M5 from 1972 which is still not showing any signs in the VF. I think if you avoid going lower than that you will be fine on that point. Any M2,M3,M4, M5 , M6 has a potential to have costly repair when something would happen to it. M5 will have slightly higher cost but to me any except maybe a M6 at today's crazy prices could be a total loss in some cases of failure. i.e. finding an other one would be cheaper than the repair. The same is true for my old digital bodies (see below)

The chance that my M5 will outlive my digital M's and DMR is far higher than the other way around.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by dpitt