fursan Posted October 28, 2007 Share #1 Posted October 28, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have completed my leica M8 set-up. 'cron 28,'lux 35, 'lux 50, APO 'cron 75, 'elmarit 90 and the makro 90/4. Am I asking or expecting too much from Leica to have M8 and my Leica lenses focus properly. Or this is the way Leica takes pictures and the way pictures are taken with Leica? I have committed to be with it for the long term..but am seriously frustrated. Or do you experienced M8 folks expect to have a backup M8..one to use while the other is off to Solms? In desperation and encouragement from forum members did the 2mm hex gymnastics ( I want to take photos not be a mechanic! ) and it is either or..28/35/50 or 75/90/90. I was trying to acquire the 'lux 75 but no way now. As one last ditch attempt to stay with leica I shall have my MP delivered today. Hopefully the MP and my lenses shall give me the pleasure of image making that led me to Leica. I am convinced Leica can and does deliver superb images. The only issue is that I cannot be sure it will do this everytime..all the time like my nikons have done for me. Sorry for the rant..but I am frustrated. Any suggestions will be gratefully acknowledged. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Hi fursan, Take a look here Is it too much to ask? ( long rant ). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest stnami Posted October 28, 2007 Share #2 Posted October 28, 2007 , ..........,bin the lot...........>......this will place you in the eccentric class....>...freedom-!! > do as you please no one will mind anymore Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pelikan1931 Posted October 28, 2007 Share #3 Posted October 28, 2007 either the rangefinder mechanism or the way lens are made, or both, they have shown their age, tolerence that is fine for film emulsion is not for digital sensor, do not expect all your lens to focus 100% perfect with your M8. i regard a grey card and a hex key as the essential survival kit for M8. reduce the lens you intend to use, or buy another M8, sending all your stuff to solms for fine tuning is not realistic, I doubt if it will work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fursan Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share #4 Posted October 28, 2007 maybe...just maybe, but then i remember when i was young ( no less mature!? )..the sage ..patience grasshopper! , ..........,bin the lot...........>......this will place you in the eccentric class....>...freedom-!! > do as you please no one will mind anymore Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fursan Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted October 28, 2007 Thanks. love the 50. lens and fov. my fav ov. maybe just keep that and the 28. pity though! either the rangefinder mechanism or the way lens are made, or both, they have shown their age, tolerence that is fine for film emulsion is not for digital sensor, do not expect all your lens to focus 100% perfect with your M8. i regard a grey card and a hex key as the essential survival kit for M8. reduce the lens you intend to use, or buy another M8, sending all your stuff to solms for fine tuning is not realistic, I doubt if it will work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 28, 2007 Share #6 Posted October 28, 2007 The fact that the M8 supports a 50 year old lens mount is both one of its strengths and its Achilles Heel. It supports older lenses but offers little opportunity for update beyond the passive lens code. The level of precision in modern lenses, the longer and faster lenses, the increased demands of digital sensors and not least the ability to instantly review results all stretch the M focussing system to the limit. The great problem of course is that it is a focussing system by proxy. You are relying on the mechanical alignment of the camera so that when the rangefinder image is coincident, the image is actually in focus. When you think about it, it's a wonder it works as well as it does. For now, critical alignment is the only answer; in the future, changes such as thinner sensors and the ability for users to calibrate their own lenses would improve things. For example, you can think of an alignment exercise where a sensor capable of live view operation is used in a test mode to detect focus at different distances and so "teach" the camera about this particular lens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted October 28, 2007 Share #7 Posted October 28, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) yes, they just dont get it right. My Noctilux went in for calibration and still slightly frontfocuses, while my 50asph went in for calibration is better now but still slightly backfocus, my 35/1.4asph had to be sent in twice, seems ok now (not much used so I cant say for sure). Why dont they manage to install a testing/check which works, instead of letting the customer test the lenses. If I pay over 2000 € for a 50mm lens, I think there should be some money in the budget to install a quality check which does find out if the lens focuses really accurate or not. Is it that difficult? The could just take 5 packages of cornflakes, place them in 10mm distance, and shoot them from different distances and with different f-stops. Should take max. 15 Minutes per lens. Lets say the calculate with 80 € per hour => 20€ plus %% for sales and other cost =>50€. Really, I just dont get it that they dont get it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted October 28, 2007 Share #8 Posted October 28, 2007 ......The great problem of course is that it is a focussing system by proxy. You are relying on the mechanical alignment of the camera so that when the rangefinder image is coincident, the image is actually in focus. When you think about it, it's a wonder it works as well as it does. .... I dont see it as a wonder. How many things do we have in engineering where to parts have to be toleranced in a way that they match together? Many, just like a cylinder in every motor, like the different wheels in a gear,.... Tolerance (and check) the rangefinder, and also the lenses in such way, that even a lens which is at the lower end of the tolerance and a body which is at the other end do work together. If it doesnt work, you need a tighter tollerance. And if the forum members here are able to calibrate their rangefinders at home, than Leica should be able to do this a little better in the first step. And if I can find out if a lens frontfocuses in 2 minutes, Leica should be able to do it as well. IMO they have to work on this issue. If the dont people might ask themselves, if they dont manage to set a proper check for focus calibration, how good are their checks and quality testing regarding other issues??? Cheers, Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradreiman Posted October 28, 2007 Share #9 Posted October 28, 2007 im hearing alot of people expecting the m8 and lenses to focus perfectly and I can't help but wonder if the human element is to blame in alot of cases. it took me years to be a fast proficient focusser of m cameras and I never blamed the camera when it was off. i simply adjusted the 2mil hex and when to work. and to say that adjusting the cam is a sort of gymnastics and akin to being a mechanic makes me wonder if a manual camera system is right for some people here....Brad Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest s.m.e.p. Posted October 28, 2007 Share #10 Posted October 28, 2007 The MP with a two lens combination (35 + 75) or three lens combination (28 + 50 + 90) is a great tool when you travel! Enjoy it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_S Posted October 28, 2007 Share #11 Posted October 28, 2007 You are not alone. I have all my M8 stuff (including 12 lenses) in Solms for adjustment. You can read it here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/36187-all-back-solms-once-more.html#post377854 Fewer lenses, fewer problems. In my case, the point was focus alignment of four lenses (75cron, 75lux, nocti and a DOA WATE: mind you, excpet for the 75lux, all were new). To prevent misalignment of the other 8 lenses (all stayed in Solms at least once last year), I was advised to send them in as well earlier this month. Hope to have them back in a few weeks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted October 28, 2007 Share #12 Posted October 28, 2007 im hearing alot of people expecting the m8 and lenses to focus perfectly and I can't help but wonder if the human element is to blame in alot of cases. it took me years to be a fast proficient focusser of m cameras and I never blamed the camera when it was off. i simply adjusted the 2mil hex and when to work. and to say that adjusting the cam is a sort of gymnastics and akin to being a mechanic makes me wonder if a manual camera system is right for some people here....Brad Could you explain me the trick if you have 2 fast lenses which slightly front focus, and one which does slightly backfokus - how should I adjust my camera??? I dont see what inconsistent quality control has to do with the question, if a manual camera system is right for somebody? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted October 28, 2007 Share #13 Posted October 28, 2007 For example, you can think of an alignment exercise where a sensor capable of live view operation is used in a test mode to detect focus at different distances and so "teach" the camera about this particular lens. At the same time you could calibrate correction for lens caste. Now that would be a digital RF I'd like to see. The profile for your 35 Summilux would be tweaked for focus calibration, focus shift, IR and fall off -the same for all your lenses. The bar code would identify them and the profiles would contain the added custom mods you calibrated for your camera. Mechanical components cannot hold perfect calibration forever but with a digital system to recalibrate everything to match the state of the mechanical system you could have a super accurate system. This is done with printing presses, ink jet printers and other systems that demand high accuracy but must track variations in mechanical components over time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted October 28, 2007 Share #14 Posted October 28, 2007 I am not beyond 'having a go' at adjusting my M8 when it returns from Solms, if necessary. But, I understand that there are three focus adjusting points, only one of which is user adjustable. I also understand that (maybe) they are also interdependent on each other for critical focus work, which I often do. So in such a scenario, am I wise or stupid to fiddle wit the system? This is a serious question about a serious situation. I have just bought a second M8 while my first is 'in hospital'. The most critical lens in my seven lens set up is the Noctilux, which has had two trips back to Solms for focus corrective adjustment. It still has variables, which I am learning to compensate for, but working under stress, you can't always remember to compensate. Maybe I am needing to reduce the stress in my work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fursan Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share #15 Posted October 28, 2007 Yes, I expect each and every lens to focus precisely where and when I want it to focus. Such a fundamental and essential activity as focussing gone awry? hex keys, seat of the pants fixes..what about the system that costs enough and one has to p*** around with 2mm hex keys for a lens that costs over us$3000 and a camera that supposedly will cost over US$ 5500. Decisive moments...with my M8 system, I have to concentrate on still objects only! If it took me 2 years to focus properly ( i rountinely use my d2x and d200 with mf ), I would have taken some other less demanding pursuits. im hearing alot of people expecting the m8 and lenses to focus perfectly and I can't help but wonder if the human element is to blame in alot of cases. it took me years to be a fast proficient focusser of m cameras and I never blamed the camera when it was off. i simply adjusted the 2mil hex and when to work. and to say that adjusting the cam is a sort of gymnastics and akin to being a mechanic makes me wonder if a manual camera system is right for some people here....Brad Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted October 28, 2007 Share #16 Posted October 28, 2007 im hearing alot of people expecting the m8 and lenses to focus perfectly and I can't help but wonder if the human element is to blame in alot of cases. ... and to say that adjusting the cam is a sort of gymnastics and akin to being a mechanic makes me wonder if a manual camera system is right for some people here....Brad Any resolution advantage gotten for the premium paid for a $3000 Leica lens over a competent $300 lens is completely lost with a slight amount of mis-focus. Adjusting cams on the fly without the aid of a lab bench pretty much insures that the additional money spent for Leica quality was wasted. When a camera and one lens cost around $8,500 yes you should expect it to be able to focus accurately. Whether the method of focus is manual or auto should not matter -as a matter of fact manual focus should provide an advantage in accuracy in many situations. I understand the difficulty of adapting the complicated optical-mechanical contraption that is the finder and lenses designed for film to digital but if the digital M and Leica lenses are going to sold as the ultimate in image quality to justify the lofty prices Leica will need to find a solution. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted October 28, 2007 Share #17 Posted October 28, 2007 I have three lenses for the M8 (CV 15, 35 cron ASPH, 50 cron IV) - no problems I've never had a problem focusing my film M's in the past (3 different versions), didn't expect any problems with the M8 and haven't had any. Perhaps I'm lucky, but I perceive that some of the reported problems with focusing are occuring with owners who have never shot with a rangefinder before. Familiarity breeds proficiency. No umbrage intended. Just my two cents. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted October 28, 2007 Share #18 Posted October 28, 2007 I have three lenses for the M8 (CV 15, 35 cron ASPH, 50 cron IV) - no problems I've never had a problem focusing my film M's in the past (3 different versions), didn't expect any problems with the M8 and haven't had any. Perhaps I'm lucky, but I perceive that some of the reported problems with focusing are occuring with owners who have never shot with a rangefinder before. Familiarity breeds proficiency.No umbrage intended. Just my two cents. I started shooting RF in the 70's. When I got the M8 I bought a new 90/4 it back focused a mile right out of the box, the second one I got was dead on. I bought several lenses used they all needed focus calibration (can't fault Leica for that) -my M8 RF was dead on out of the box. The issues with mis-calibrated new lenses are not fantasy unfortunately. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fursan Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share #19 Posted October 28, 2007 No umbrage taken. while I personally had never used an rf before my m8, i find it hard to believe that most of the others using the m8 and reporting such issues are unfamiliar with rf usage in general. With the propensity of the issue with M8, i am sure, though, that experienced rf users are also a bit frustrated. there has to be a better explanation than just approtioning such a fundamental issue with a much vaulted system to the inexperience of users. what a copout! why is a spade not called a spade. at least the leica would be forced to address this issue seriously...or dlay further the announced price icrease on the M8. I have three lenses for the M8 (CV 15, 35 cron ASPH, 50 cron IV) - no problems I've never had a problem focusing my film M's in the past (3 different versions), didn't expect any problems with the M8 and haven't had any. Perhaps I'm lucky, but I perceive that some of the reported problems with focusing are occuring with owners who have never shot with a rangefinder before. Familiarity breeds proficiency.No umbrage intended. Just my two cents. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted October 28, 2007 Share #20 Posted October 28, 2007 what a copout! why is a spade not called a spade. at least the leica would be forced to address this issue seriously...or dlay further the announced price icrease on the M8. In the short term Leica could make sure that new lenses leaving the factory are properly calibrated. But a majority of users are using lenses bought for film cameras or bought used. A lot of these lenses which were acceptable for film use are now needing focus calibration. I always figure a trip to DAG for any lens I buy used. New lenses -I deal with a retailer who will take it back and find one that is calibrated properly. Long term some adjustments in lens design, finder mechanism and the digital components will need to be done to minimize or eliminate the difficulties in focus calibration. It is along with the tight lens to sensor register one of the technical challenges of digital RF cameras. The M8 being the first digital M is revealing all the unanticipated issues specific to this platform. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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